ANTI SUBMARINE WARFARE HELICOPTER OPTIONS: THE US$11 MILLION HARBIN Z-9EC HELICOPTER

PHOTO CREDIT: thepeopleofpakistan

PHOTO CREDIT: PAKISTAN TRIBUNE

PHOTO CREDIT: thepeopleofpakistan

PHOTO CREDIT: Times of Pakistan

PHOTO CREDIT: SINA IMAGE

These electronic warfare/anti submarine warfare helicopters are equipped with pulse-compression radar, low-frequency dipping sonar, radar
warning receiver and Doppler navigation system.

They are armed with torpedoes.

About these ads

About beegeagle

BEEG EAGLE -perspectives of an opinionated Nigerian male with a keen interest in Geopolitics, Defence and Strategic Studies
This entry was posted in GLOBAL DEFENCE NEWS, SECURITY ISSUES AND CONCERNS, Uncategorized and tagged . Bookmark the permalink.

25 Responses to ANTI SUBMARINE WARFARE HELICOPTER OPTIONS: THE US$11 MILLION HARBIN Z-9EC HELICOPTER

  1. beegeagle says:

    We hope that the FG maximise their booming trade and contractual ties with China to do something good for the Nigerian military.

    – US$ 4bn 3,500MW power projects at Mambilla and Zungeru

    – US$4bn nationwide railway expansion

    – US$1+bn Abuja Light Rail

    – US$470m CCTV project

    – billions of dollars worth of other construction projects

    I expect the FG to pursue a US$500m oil equivalence barter trade deal and secure the following items

    * three Type 056 corvettes @ US$225m

    * three Z-9EC ASW helicopters @US$33m

    * two decomm. Jianghu II frigates @ US$50m

    * twelve Hongdu L15 supersonic trainer jets @ US$120m

    * a Shaanxi ZDK-03 AEWC plane@$70m

    That can be written off with 450,000 barrels of crude – less than a fifth of the peak daily production attained this year. Even at that, we can spread the payment over a two-year period with inconsequential monthly commitments a mere 20,000 barrels! What exactly is the impediment standing in the way or are the Lords of the Manor asleep for crying out loud?

    The FG are not as constrained as we are led to believe. They simply need to muster the political will is all. Look up and see how well stacked that Pakistan Navy Air Station is – complete with MPA and EW planes. Guess what? In 2011, the Nigerian FG operated a budget which was a third larger than that which was declared by the Pakistan FG. So what is our excuse – their population is even marginally larger!

    • Max Montero says:

      The Z-9 is cheap if your pricing is indeed correct, far cheaper than its French twin Eurocopter Panther/Dauphin. But I think its not really a good thing to compare Nigeria with Pakistan….have you seen their infrastructure, health care, social welfare, etc? No offence meant, but they should be spending more on these services rather than trying their luck to match the Indians militarily. Nigeria (based on data available on net) is way way better than Pakistan. Following their way of budgeting will mean disaster for your people.

      A right mix and match, possibly a defence budget of around 2%~2.5% of GDP is acceptable. I believe Singapore spends 25% of its annual budget for defence and defense research…that around $9~10 billion/year, but their citizens are complaining that they should be spending more for health care and subsidizing social services rather than spend that much in their military. Comparatively, the Philippines will spend around 6% of the government’s annual budget for 2013, roughly equivalent to 1.2% of its GDP.

      • doziex says:

        @max, nigeria’s infrastructure and health care system is in every bit a shamble as that of pakistan.

        The pakistanis just choose not to be irresponsible with the defense of their nation.

        And as for nigeria, well, the status quo speaks for itself.

      • doziex says:

        Sorry, I meant to say pakistanis choose to be RESPONSIBLE about the defense of their nation.

    • tim says:

      Well, I will prefer a lynx…….

  2. beegeagle says:

    Yeah Tim, we have the US$14million Super Lynx flying with some nations military services today. However, we started the NN Air Arm around 1985 with three Lynx Mk.89 ASW helicopters. What happened to those and how come they have not been upgraded and returned to service because like all else, they are low-mileage assets still..as far as usage goes.

    We saw the NAF refloat two upgraded Super Puma helics earlier this year which were hit by Western arms sanctions and were crated for 15 years wef 1997. The Lynxes are not older but they are still not in service.

    I have one good example of Chinese goodwill to hold up and it assures me that, at this point when they are so eager to gain influence and to enjoy a visible strategic partnership with the FG ala what they have managed with Sudan, that if we get these Z-9EC ASW and need technical support, it would come sooner and more meaningfully sans politicking than what we saw with the Jaguar jets and Lynx helicopters.

    I could be wrong but the replacement of the US$350m NIGCOMSAT free of charge is a pointer – never mind a US$11m piece of hardware.

    BTW, it carries French-made Arriel engines, so I am okay with that and with the Chinese-developed EW and countermeasures.

    Notin for Lynx, my guy :-) Dem time don pass. The Chinese C802/C803 SSMs boast a kill ratio approaching 98%. One Iranian-cloned example which was launched by Hezbollah successfully hit an Israeli Sa’ar corvette a few years ago. In much the same way as our Super Puma can fire Exocet SSMs, this smaller Z-9EC can fire a C803 AShM with a range of 255km…hitting a target at Ilorin or Benin City from Sagamu ! The Exocet does not reach that far.

    I keep an open mind about these things and take each system that I encounter on a case by case basis rather than concluding that the Western-made example would necessarily always be more formidable.

    Morocco lately awarded a contract for MBT 2000 tanks to China. After trials, the tank came out better than much more fancied brands – including the Oplot. Earlier this year, a Sudan Army Chinese-built ZTZ-96 tank destroyed a South Sudanese T72 at the Battle of Heglig.

    Bottomline, keep an open mind since there still is “no art to read the mind’s construction on the face”. With hybrid systems which feature a mix of Western and Chinese technology, I do not even think twice. The Harbin Z-9EC is one of such. Ditto the Y12 plane which carries Pratt and Whitney engines and the WZ551 APCs which carry Mercedes engines.

    As you might have noticed, for good reason, I do not succumb to that “one stereotype fits all” paradigm where Chinese systems are concerned because a lot of that is unidirectional vitriol masterminded by rival commercial interests.

    The Russian-made BMP-3 Infantry Fighting Vehicle is probably the best IFV ever made but few would be magnanimous enough to tell you so. You only need to see that ‘unlikely’ customers such as Greece, the UAE, Korea, Saudi Arabia etc are falling over themselves for that machine to realise that some of these stereotypes do not add up.

    Like I said, I take them on ONE AT A TIME and that way, one can make up his mind, unassisted.

  3. beegeagle says:

    Max, are you aware that someone somewhere could also be saying that, over this Spratlys Islands spat, The Philippines are trying to ‘match’ China – that is what the sudden naval buildup is all about, innit?

    Situations vary but should The Philippines be engaging in a military build-up against a China which can fathomably match the deluge of arms produced by the Soviets during the crunchtime that was WW II?

    Sometimes, a nation has to ignore what people think about her and do what she thinks best for her national interest. You do not have to worry so much about what people say, most times. That is authentic living…the sort of which has produced the Chinese juggernaut today regardless of the barrage of negative reports about all facets of Chinese life which we grew up reading in all the Western magazines on the shelf. It has not abated but the Chinese attitude is ‘let them say’, knowing that one of those capitalist countries, as of 2010, had 53,000 companies registered to do business in that same ‘God forsaken, communist China’

    Pakistan are not rivals to India. A 7:1 mismatch in population, 4:1 mismatch in geographical size and perhaps a 10:1 advantage in economic muscle tells the story. Without nuclear weapons, India would drive through Pakistan twice.

    However, Pakistan have to be commended for trying to do their best for their homeland against all odds and for their ingenuity. That Indian challenge gave rise to the Pakistan-modified F-7PG, for instance. Their leaders have shown presence of mind and courage through the decades.

    Even without the Indian threat, have they not shown seriousness with CTCOIN operations through SF development, such as those of us from countries such as yours and mine which face threats from terrorists can emulate?

    While India represents an existential threat which has necessitated the clear seriousness about defence and security in Pakistan, I dare say that they have to show more seriousness about provisioning for their troops for CTCOIN operations as well.

    • jimmy says:

      OGA PECCAVVI I GOT THIS FROM THE GUARDIAN.ngrguardiannews.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=106989:democracy-has-been-good-for-the-air-force&catid=73:policy-a-politics&Itemid=607

  4. Henry says:

    OGA doziex, do not believe everything you read online. Nigerian health care system is not perfect but it’s far far away from shambles.

    Series of gains have been made in specifically heath and education sectors. Break throughs have been in african medicine has been made in many nigerian teaching hospitals. Off course not without her challenges but I can categorically tell you that gains have been made.

    Education, last year received the 2nd highest budget after Defence. Guess what 2013 budget education has the highest budget, Agriculture, even before defence.

    Infrastructure is not a bad as people claim, currently many federal roads are currently been up graded and are under construction. In fact as I type, I’m currently driving on east west Road, and Setraco (german engineering coy) are on site working. The only state that I know that over the past 4 years has not seen any considerable development is abia state, infact no development at all.

    The problem is that nigerians have this mentality that “nothing good dey dis country, so dem no go fit do am, d only thin na 2 go india”. Even if it actually be done / managed perfectly here. It’s basically a perception problem, not at all the fact that we’ve not been seeing progress.

    If you think say na lie, when next you come naija, visit port-harcourt make you see government schools wey beat all them private schools hands down and health centers everywhere within reach of people. The only problem is that the health centres are under manned. Good news sells nada in nigeria, but talk about boko haram and corruption, ehen, then you see nigerians cursing.

  5. beegeagle says:

    Hmn Henry, you just touched on what is a very interesting topic to me – the emerging trend of enlightened governance in the South-South region of Nigeria which has every state government wary of being exposed for not impacting the lives of the electorate. State governments, after all, attend to issues on the Concurrent Legislative List(meaning an area of competence for FG and state governments alike) such as health, education, agriculture and not-so-expensive infrastructure such feeder roads and rural electrification.

    I cannot lie to you, the rebuilt and fully-equipped schools and those comprehensive health centres which I see everywhere around Rivers State are a legacy for which the Amaechi administration cannot be forgotten. Airconditioned schools with fully functional facilities – labs and computers, books and uniforms, free meals for day students? The well-stocked CHCs could easily pass off for General Hospitals as well.

    That government has tried to make a difference and I would have expected somebody from outside to also come in and do a documentary about that…since they normally come in and go filming refuse dumps. AIT and NTA have done their bit as far as coverage goes.

    That is the reason why I sometimes accuse some of our foreign detractors of carrying certain notions about Nigeria with a certain level of rigidity akin to a mental tumour. Do they see and comment or do they just sound repetitive in a manner which suggests that nothing ever changes…a flat lie?

    I come from the South-South region and where half of the states operate US$2.5-3bn budgets for populations which average 4-5 million persons. My own state government ran a US$2.75bn budget this year but CANNOT claim to have equalled the accomplishments of states such as Rivers and Akwa Ibom which play in that league.

    It has set off competition among governments such that everyone is rebuilding and equipping schools across the South-South region. Not even the states with more modest means such as Edo and Cross River are left out of this drive towards making the people feel the impact of government in ways such as have never been seen before in those parts.

    A country such as Ghana regularly come here to clone our institutions – Education Tax Fund, Road Safety Commission are just a few examples. Our nomadic education scheme has been cloned by Ethiopia as well. The Federal/Quasi Federal Constitutions of pre-partition Sudan, Ethiopia, DR Congo and South Africa were cloned from Nigeria’s! Somehow, our people expect that it is too much for anyone to borrow a leaf from Nigeria while the foreign megaphones will never be bothered, whether it stems from malevolence or indolence, to see if anything is going contrary to the rigid notions which they have.

    • jimmy says:

      Add to that ONDO STATE, I have seen picture of ROADS AND bridges that have made me as a civil engineer burst with pride, BAD news TRAVELS FAST AND ALWAYS SELLS.
      I have one thing to advocate that Nigerians should when SOMETHING BAD HAPPENS criticize and when something good happens with the same intensity praise it is that simple.
      I have to remind fellow relatives that Nigeria has THREE SATELLITES stuck up in space while the rest of AFRICA HAS HOW MANY? EXACTLY

  6. Spirit says:

    @jimmy, happy to know that a fellow engineer is on board. Respects sir,

    Nigeria as a nation has more than
    enough to cater for her needs in all sectors. We can afford to equip our military with the “final words” in weapons systems at the same time build/equip schools, hospitals and build good roads. Its just a case of misplaced priorities, ignorance and corruption on the part of most of our leaders. But things are gradually changing for the better. We can see light at the of the tunnel

  7. beegeagle says:

    That is the point, Doziex. The attainment of a secure environment which is facilitated through a mix of enablers such as training, finance and equipment.

    Assuming that once poverty is virtually eradicated, violent crime and deviance are thrown out of the window is FALSE.

    Why are so many Somali youths fleeing Minnesota to go and join Al Shabaab? Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab was born to a serial chairman of Nigerian A-List banks and lived in opulence as a student in London. He is a failed suicide bomber regardless.

    The FG must pay close attention to the material needs of the defence and security forces.

    • doziex says:

      Hey Oga Beeg, you said a sudanese chinese built T-96 tank destroyed a soviet T-72 tank in heglig ?

      Wow ! tank on tank warfare.

      Are you holding out on us ? Such juicy, I mean intriguing details. I beg spill the beans men. (LOL)

  8. doziex says:

    Gentlemen, I am aware and glad about the progress in governance taking place mainly in the southwest and south south of nigeria.

    Kudos to the visionary state officials, that are bringing about this change. More needs to be done by nigerians to showcase this progress to the world.

    I once posted a youtube footage i found about Gov. Ukpabi’s governance in akwa ibom state on this blog . The organisation and the vision displayed was encouraging.

    Youtube is a good tool, and there is great footage about life and infrastructural development in abuja and lagos.

    However, my point to @max, was that progress in civil governance should never be used as an excuse to short change military and security competence.

    Pakistans military prowess, indian inspired or not, has led to industrial growth in the civilian sector in pakistan.
    For instance, pakistan now sells nigeria tractors. A top official was in nigeria not long ago, offering us advice on rice farming and processing. To top it off, we might be buying chinese/pakistani developed fc-1 fighter .

  9. beegeagle says:

    Yeah Doziex, when the news broke I did post same in the thread title “GLOBAL DEFENCE AND SECURITY BRIEFS”

    China are not useless. With what they have today, local and foreign, the combined armies of Asia less India cannot hope to fight and defeat them. If they are that formidable on so called ‘inferior technology’, we really should quit the profiling and get what we need from them.

    Western military production has never been tailored towards the African market in any case. Not so for Russia and China. We need to quit the profiling anyway because we spend too much time salivating after the ideal while foregoing the gettable. That is why we are where we are still.

    Countries such as Syria and Algeria did not get into the military shape which they are today by waiting to be patronised by any Western government. We need to get what we can from wherever so long as it is POTENT. We cannot keep on waiting for validation. Why wait for a Typhoon which would rrquire the European Parliament to sit before you get one bare-boned unit whereas you can walk into Rosoboronexport with your cash and get sold eighteen units of Su 30MK2s which are just as bad, if not more so.

    We have glamorised stripped down Western systems for too long and we paid the price during the era when sanctions were slammed against us. Please let’s move on and quit waiting for the unattainable.

  10. beegeagle says:

    D-E-S In reply to Beegeagle.

    True!!!…Individual or opportunistic
    crime will remain true like in every
    other nation or society between Earth
    and Mars…the truth is there is no
    special prize in realising these, but
    there are known and proven contingencies to eradicate communal
    violent crimes and social deviance or
    seditious crimes…

  11. beegeagle says:

    D-E-S In reply to Max Montero.

    India & Pakistan…These 2 great
    commonwealth countries present
    perhaps the greatest 21st century
    policy based understanding of
    belligerent geopolitical politics and
    evolved diplomacy….they taught the world the ‘fine’ art of political/diplomatic tuned SF operations…based
    on a back-ground of 1st class
    technological know-how and an
    purposeful legal evasion to outright
    conventional war , but @Max is right, Pakistan should have refocused their
    socio-economic policies to keep in-touch with their emergent socio-political-diplomatic realities, which are by now unfortunately been used against them and not by their assumed short-term historical nemesis India….it’s clearly not about realistic tax driven economic returns or GDP posturing, or technological understanding, but their in-ability to develop socio-politically in tandem to mutually available realities in-order to seize their ideological momentum created by quantifiable and analytical socio-politic-diplomatic-economic advantages…Pakistan’s ability to deliver a fight is not a doubt

  12. Exactly the right size helicopter for operations on THUNDER. The pictures in this post appear to show two different variants, the one with the large “Paella Pan” below the nose also has optical and IR sights, and appears to be optimized for a surface attack role, not sure if at sea or ashore. Notice the “honeycomb” grid in the pic of the bird being tied down on the Paki frigate – the TALON landing grid, it works with a probe mounted to the airframe that makes securing the copter in heavy seas much easier. THUNDER has such a grid, but the pictures I’ve seen of the A109s don’t show the probe, and the grid on THUNDER has been covered in all the pictures I’ve seen. One of the details the Nigerian Naval Air Arm needs to get on to make efficient and effective use of their assets.

    • beegeagle says:

      Is this smaller than the A109? I do not think so. Still it is embarked on 2,500 ton F22 frigates..never mind a 3,250 ton NNS Thunder

      Anyway, this Z-9EC is the helicopter on board the F22 frigates which the Pakistan Navy operate. They got a US$750 million deal for four F22 frigates and six Z-9EC ASW helicopters.

      As for the unit with the white disc, it is adapted for ELINT. Does that not resemble the discs under the cockpits of the NAF’s Alenia ATR 42-500MPA Surveyor planes?

  13. Distant Friend says:

    Beeg,

    A109 and this Harbin Z-9 are very close in size and max takeoff weight. 10000 lbs Maximum Takeoff Weight is the critical limit for THUNDER, assuming the rotors can fold to fit in the hanger IF you’re on about hangering the bird. THUNDER was born without a hanger – it was added at the mid-life. But the 10000 lbs limit is un-avoidable. The Lynx is a touch too heavy, even if the two remaining Nigeria examples could be brought back in service (my sources say one of the original trio crashed and burned).

    The problem is that 10000 lbs is just not big enough for a truly capable ASW bird, with dipping sonar, enough sonobuoys to obtain a decent firing solution, Torps, enough avionics to hover in shitty weather, while enough ratings to work all the gear mess about.

    Most navies with a decent airborne ASW capability started small 40 years ago (think Westland Wasp). They grew their capability with the equipment, so the big helis now in use are a nice match for their doctrine, training, experienced personnel, etc. There is not much on the market anymore for a new ASW country to get started with simpler kit – this Harbin comes about as close as anything out there.

    The Taiwanese got a late start – they used Hughes 500’s with a MAD boom, a surface search radar, and torpedoes; they have now graduated to H-60’s, and they only killed about 3 aircrews with those single engine (shudder!) allegedly navalized light scout copters. The successor to Hughes will not even build such a machine.

    To me, the Harbin looks like a good STARTER ASW hell, and could be precisely what is needed. But it will take time and money to build a truly effective deterrent. By the time the NN has learned all it can from it, it will be time for a real ASW ship as well…THUNDER is NOT that. It’s a Warship Simulator that actually gets underway .

  14. mnl01 says:

    Royal Cambodian Air Force Receives 12 Z-9 Harbin

    Twelve Harbin Z-9 Haitun helicopters, which Cambodia had purchased from China, were
    delivered to the Royal Cambodian Air Force on November 25. The helicopter delivery was a new historic achievement in addition to numerous supports the Chinese government has given to Cambodia.

    The Cambodian Z-9 helicopter fleet will be made of 4 assault variant, 6 utility variant and 2 VIP configured variant. These helicopters would also being used for training purposes, border protection as well as to support HADR operations.

    Soeung Samnang, commander of the Royal Cambodian Air Force, said the Z-9 helicopters were purchased from the China National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation through a USD 195 million loan approved by China in August 2011.

    Cambodia is one of China close allies in ASEAN. Both countries have reached the Comprehensive Strategic Partnership of Cooperation ratified in 2010.

    Beside the Royal Cambodian Air Force, other ASEAN operators of the Z-9 is Lao’s People’s Liberation Army Air Force with 4 currently operational.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s