AN IMPROVISED SELF-PROPELLED 105mm GUN CAPTURED BY NIGERIAN TROOPS AT GWOZA

The Nigerian Army operate neither tracked nor truck-mounted 105mm artillery.

This piece which was recaptured from Boko Haram at Gwoza could only have been mounted on this truck’s chassis by the terrorists. It shows how much they are willing to innovate just to remain in the fight

PHOTO CREDIT: DON KLERICUZIO

About beegeagle

BEEG EAGLE -perspectives of an opinionated Nigerian male with a keen interest in Geopolitics, Defence and Strategic Studies
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66 Responses to AN IMPROVISED SELF-PROPELLED 105mm GUN CAPTURED BY NIGERIAN TROOPS AT GWOZA

  1. Obviously they have skilled hands. Evidence for those that doubed this.

  2. Deway says:

    Not just skilled hands, they have some financial resources at their disposal. For skilled hands, I suspect Chadian and Sudanese helpers.

    • lachit says:

      @deway
      most probably sudan
      in the previous thread
      the second picture that i posted at the end of the theread is that of truck mounted artillary system KHALIFA made by sudan

  3. chynedoo says:

    How do they move these heavy arty without being spotted? NA and air force need more surveillance of the NE. Imagine the damage BH would have caused to NA personnel on the frontline if they had used this in a confrontation with the troops, or maybe if BH used this in built up areas it would have caused a carnage on civilians

    • Are James says:

      To construct these thing you need to have done welding. Welding gives off electromagnetic waves at many frequencies so visible NAF aircraft with the basics of surveillance gear. Even torch welding would have given off sharp IR emissions that would have been detected by the airforce equipment. Indeed hidden workshops inside Sambisa or many other places would have been some of the signatures that DHQ would have been hoping for in trying to locate BH bases. I am almost sure all the construction we are seeing was done in Chad or Niger and the finished product driven in by Boko Haram.

  4. saleh says:

    The construction is actually basic what is more important is if the truck chassis would be able to sustain the recoil over time

  5. beegeagle says:

    Not this truck…will give way soon enough. At best, this would do for a 57mm or 73mm gun.

    At the very least, they would be needing a MACK 8 x 2 or a MAN 8 x 2 x 2 to sustain the heavy recoil i.e a ten-wheeler or twelve-wheeler.

    In Nigerian trucking parlance, that would be “ten tyres” or “twelve tyres” and with Super 30 axles for that matter.

    • Bharat says:

      With love from China, 105 mm Howitzer on a 4×4.

    • Bharat says:

      Low recoil 105mm mounted howitzer from Mandus Group Ltd.

      • Kola Adekola says:

        Oga Bharat, that gun on the 4 x 4 is very impressive indeed. It must be very nimble indeed.
        All that needs doing is to slow down the absorption of recoil energy, dissipate it… and Bob’s your uncle!

      • asorockweb says:

        Nice. Ideal for COIN. I would brace the back end of the truck with lightweight stands – reduce the stress on the mechanical components of the truck.

    • lachit says:

      lol u beat me to it
      i was doing some searching for a some write up when i came across a bh 105mm mounted on a truck destroyed in gwoza and was thinking of posting it when this injustice happened

      • lachit says:

        i was talking about this photo looks like the same destroyed BH 105 mm truck mounted howitzer.

        only difference the photo was taken from a different angle
        also from the damaged frontal portion it is clear the BH 105 mm truck mounted howitzer was probably trying to get out of gwoza and ran smack straight into the waiting guns of t 72s or bmp1s lying in ambush.
        note the spring plate shock absorber of the damaged truck.every time the gun fired the shells would surely miss their targets .good only for indiscriminate shelling

      • @ Lachit I conclude that you are an engineer in the military or formerly military of with a def contractor

      • lachit says:

        @Adetayo’s Blog
        i am neither of the three
        just a ordinary fellow(a worker ant lolzz)
        and am satisfied at that
        as long i live at my terms

        say ru a student or employed
        my guess student

      • lachit says:

        like ur job????
        hehehe

  6. sazulu says:

    Lachit this is what I’m talking about based on your suggestions. The gun here looks like OTO Melara Mod 56 PH. However I feel making mounting this gun on a truck defeats the purpose of PH. The M56 would have been better instead.
    Though this is crude, the idea is noted. Again from what I noticed, it seems this gun can be fired mounted. However, it doesn’t seem like the truck had out-riggers to transfer the firing stresses to the ground. This would soon affect the truck’s suspension system.
    Even if we don’t get an automated lasting and firing systems right away, mounting these guns is a right way to go. A good 3/4 t Truck is suitable.

    • eyimola says:

      That weapon can never be fired mounted.It will rip the vehicle apart. But it does look very nimble mounted on that platform. Critically this shows that Boko Haram at least have a technical workshop and a degree of engineering know how.

      • lachit says:

        EVO 105 MUCH BETTER designed with far superior fire control system


        @sazulu
        mail me at vivek4eternity@gmail.com

      • lachit says:

        the weapon can be fired mounted but with low accuracy and with very low rate of fire 1 round per 2 minutes may be.
        but the only thing it cannot to do is traverse(rotate) more than 10-15 degrees horizontally on either side.more than that the gun will come off the joints when fired because the gun has no support base to transfer the recoil force on to the frame of the truck.
        looks like they bolted the base plate on which the gun swivels on to the base frame of the truck.
        lolzzz they should have bolted two horizontal beams across the base frame of the truck then the 2 legs of the howitzer would still have contact with the frame to distribute the recoil more evenly and over a larger surface area.
        i wonder how many BH were blown off the from the truck from the guns recoil.
        hehehe
        maybe some lucky ones even got direct ticket to see the invisible 72 @#$$%@#
        kamakazi howitzer

      • lachit says:

        the above comment is on the BH mounted gun

    • lachit says:

      well for the last 9 hours i was busy preparing a draft for CASE STUDY OF WHY AND HOW NIGERIA CAN UNDERTAKE COST EFFECTIVE UPGRADATION OF LEGACY 105MM AND 122MM HOWITZERS ALONG WITH DEVELOPMENT OF THEIR MOBILE VERSION.
      it turned out to very hard job and only completed 1/3 rd .(starting to have flashbacks of semester exams)
      it is lengthy and will have to upload it to my google drive once i finish(IF I FINISH).

      next time i will think twice…….. hehehe

    • lachit says:

      @sazulu
      This is the south korean EVO 105 EVOLVED WHEELED SELP PROPELLED HOWITZER which consists of 105mm gun together with the latest fire control system ported from K9 THUNDER self propelled artillary .800 + already ordered.

      • lachit says:

        THE CHINESE SYSTEM is a PROTOTYPE DISPLAYED first time in the 10 airshow expo in zhuhai china november 2014
        i remember reading about it.
        i had a discussion with a jouno who was in the show.
        he said that these system were made for export to middle east and african countries only.
        also the camo pattern of the similiar systems at display was a dead give away that it was for ME and afro countries.

        the chinese army will not order these because they are standardizing on the calibers
        and AFAIK 105mm guns is not amongst them

        under real time combat firing maintaining stability and position will be difficult. no outriggers for transferring accumulated stress and load on TO GROUND due to firing.
        the axles mainly the rear one will have to bear the additional load and after a period of repeated usage over time will start developing metallic fatique and as result there is a high probability that it will give away under sustained burst fire mode.
        this was build for looks and looks dont kill.
        LOL

      • lachit says:

        there was another 105mm CHINESE SYSTEM displayed at the same expo other than the one posted by bharat .
        it was better designed with a elaborate movable base to transfer the recoil to the ground

        THERE IS NO NEED TO BUY THESE SYSTEMS FROM ABROAD

        I THINK NIGERIA SHOULD STUDY THESE SYSTEM TO UNDERSTAND THE NITTY GRITTY OF DESIGNING SIMILIAR SYSTEMS IN HOUSE AT MUCH LOWER COSTs
        first thing first
        try recruiting the 2 fellows who made a much better rocket than the clowns in syria & iraq (for its size it managed to travel a descent 5 km)

        can any body guess along with sugar which material was used in the rocket???
        waiting for the answer ??
        hehehe

      • lachit says:

        this the other mobile gun system (105mm CHINESE SYSTEM) which i mentioned earlier which was on display along with one posted by bharat in the 10th airshow expo in zhuhai china held on november 2014.
        compare the 2 system and judge for ur selves the merits

      • This is actually makes sense, it would exert little or no recoil force on the vehicle itself, so you dont need a super strong Chasis just enough to haul it around.

      • lachit says:

        @all

        can any one tell if the IMPROVISED SELF-PROPELLED 105mm GUN was hit on the ground or from the air
        and the reason for ur conclusion???????????

  7. freeegulf says:

    it will be a good idea for NAEME to mount our D30s on trucks to make them more mobile ensuring they can move along with the mech units. if sudan can do it, we most definitely can!

    Our OTO Melara will come in very handy in the highlands. these pack howitzers still carry enough punch to provide both indirect and direct fire support for the infantry.
    Godspeed to our gallant warriors
    viva NA viva NAF viva SBS
    God bless the federal Republic

    • lachit says:

      @freegulf
      “it will be a good idea for NAEME to mount our D30s on trucks”
      I AM trying to do that ON PAPER ATLEAST
      with various modular and plug in systems to increase accuracy, enhanced fire control and better brigade/battery level coordination under any condition with support for real tme feed back for quick realignment of the guns.generally trying to keep everything simple

      • freeegulf says:

        good job oga lachit. your knowledge of armament materiel and hardware are considerable and extremely commendable. even putting down words to paper is not easy, i for one find it exerting, i m just too lazy when it comes to paper work.
        you are a big addition to the beegeagle family. to borrow oga mcshegz signature, ‘ i respect your hustle’🙂

        and yes having the D30s mounted will give the NA artillery corp considerable firepower and time adv. artillery primers have always been an issue with the corp. they never really invested in mobile artillery. one good thing that came out of this COIN is the short gap of mobile field guns and rockets. hopefully NAEME will take up this challenge for the FH and the army can get the much vaunted Uragan and Smerch BM-27 and BM-30 respectfully. kudos NA. though the tank might be the queen of the battlefield, the artillery still remain the king of the battlefield! God is always on the side of big battalions with big guns

      • lachit says:

        it nice to do something ur intersted in even if there is little chance of it being helpfull
        this is a little teaser from the draft i am trying to complete

        [The battle raged for over four hours, they were surging like locusts towards us with sophisticated weapons including anti-aircraft guns. In conventional wars, such weapons are not used on human beings. They are used to fell aircrafts. But, the insurgents use them brazenly to kill our soldiers. It tears human body into shreds on contact.]

        IN HIS OWN WORDS A BRAVE NIGERIAN SOLDIER TALE

      • lachit says:

        ANOTHER TEASER
        my own thought out realistic achievable cost effective standalone upgrade for towed oto melera 105 mm howitzer and also for oto melera mounted on 6×6 5 ton chassis fitted with out rigger.
        the modular artillary fire control system is from israel easy to install rugged and user friendly with a man portable tactical uav from israel for digital fire control officer either alone or with human forward observer to ficilitate pin point strike.
        BECAUSE ARTILLERY COMES IN MASS, BUT THE WAY FORWARD, IS ONE SHOT, ONE TARGET.
        total details will be uploaded when i finish the draft.

      • lachit says:

        to view clearly open the picture in another tab other wise not clear

  8. jimmy says:

    There is nothing wrong for the NA to purchase a couple of the recently released gun mounted howitzers that the Sudanese are marketing and go on from there.

    • freeegulf says:

      @ oga lachit, this was why it took the nigerian army forever to incorporate these AA cannons into infantry orbat. these cannons have always been treated as anti air and anti material hardware. using them against humans are regarded as war crimes. even the US military struggled with this too in lebanon in the 80s.

      the laws of war prohibit certain weapons or usage of some weapons with regard to warfare. it is the same problem with willie pete. they can be used to generate smoke, but used against humans, is considered a war crime. now their utilization leaves a fine line for anyone to actually draw conclusion if a war crime has been committed. the IDF is the chief guilty party in this. their indiscriminate use of willie pete (to generate smoke they claimed also) has horribly maimed and killed civilians.

      issues of war crimes will remain debatable for a long time. we will still continue to have the problem of POW status for non state violent actors. insurgents without uniforms, that do not adhere to any war convention, should they be granted POW status if they are captured? i have written a thesis on this, but even my mindset changes according to the local theatre.

  9. Capt Tobias Wilcock says:

    With all our qualifications, I personally do not believe we should be purchasing anything we can make ( if BH that rejects western education can adapt, impoverish and overcome), I think that own Nigerian Scientific ( which is based on educated empirical curiosity, experimentation and recorded data) and manufacturing sector should take a page of knowledge from this two young boys, after all we are talking about ” IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE ”

    http://www.vanguardngr.com/2013/10/panic-confusion-imo-community-school-boys-launch-rocket/

  10. MC Usman says:

    I believe the construction was done in one of Boko haram captured territories. If we could remember sometimes early last year before Boko haram took control of Gwoza town, they came to Madagali town and completely dismantle the giant generator set in one of Glo telecom mast in the area and fled with it. Getting qualified welders will not be a big deal, and besides each area they captured they took away anything that will aid their cause. Also in Buni Yadi the military discovered a local fertilizer plant converted into a bomb making factory using the same tools in the factory to manufacture bombs. Similarly we have Technical colleges in some of the area which will provide necessary tools in fabricating the tripod.

  11. Number one says:

    A waste of scarce resources by the enemy.

  12. sazulu says:

    I agree with you on doing things in-house if we can. However, since when I was young, youngsters have been launching rockets and building helicopters. Many of them eventually abandon the project years later, not because of funds but because they lack the qualification to proceed further. You see, it’s not by merely launching objects miles high, the Chinese have been doing that since the 13th century but rocket was finally developed in this form in the 20th century. Don’t get me wrong, these lads should be commended and even encouraged to study further. However, it can be here in Nigeria but it’s not as easy as you think, that’s why it’s called ROCKET SCIENCE.

    • Kola Adekola says:

      Oga sazulu, determination can trump qualifications any day and those guys have it by the bucket load. Indeed, the man known today as the greatest inventor of all time (Thomas Alva Edison) had little education (thank him for matches, the electric bulb, sound recording and 1,090 other patents).
      Sadly though, many Nigerians seem to have a predilection for tearing others down. Just make a post about one of these enterprising Nigerians on Nairaland and see how people who can’t count their fingers troop out to spit on the efforts of that Nigerian.
      I keep saying it, our biggest problem is identity. A lot of our people simply don’t believe in themselves.

      A person who lacks the qualifications, yet has donated years of their life to a cause before being driven to give up by frustration and derision is the exact sort of person that can lead Nigeria to higher heights. They require INVESTMENT, mostly in words of encouragement, but also in funding. However in Nigeria, we leave them to rot, because they are poor, or they are Hausa or Igbo or Ijaw or whatever.

      A couple of days ago, I asked what happened to the Ogbunigwe. Why is it that Biafra could incorporate it and yet Nigeria still hasn’t, almost half a century after defeating Biafra? Something is terribly wrong!
      The US became a technological heavyweight through using scientists from the defeated Germany (Von Braun, Walter Dornberger, Albert Einstein, Hans Bethe etc). Some of these people led to America’s nuclear successes, others to its rocketry etc.
      Why didn’t Nigeria use the captured Biafran scientists? Now that we have defeated boko haram, will we use the lessons learnt?

      • sazulu says:

        Now you’re talking. I totally agree with your closing question. However, the Biafran scientist are not hobbyists, they’re scientists as you aptly captured. That’s perhaps one of the reason they achieved that much. Determination can only trump qualification if that determination is used to acquire the knowledge of the qualified…not necessarily in a formal setting.

      • lachit says:

        @suzulu
        u got my mail id
        posted above
        or better still provide me ur email id

    • Capt Tobias Wilcock says:

      You have some points, but considering or even talking about buying from the Sudanese is ridiculous . There is an “in built” lack of belief in our selves, I would like to see something of similar potential built by any of our organized institutions both civil and Military, we are very lucky that we are against a designated terrorist group, I laugh when we talk of going at our unruly neighbors, the west was hoping for that, be certain all French and Western weapons or systems would be rendered in effective, Even Argentia always remember high altitude bombs sold to them and labelled as low level bombs, therefore hitting the targets but not exploding ( Of cause the Benjamins come in as well, more French investments in Nigeria than the Francophone Countries ), Any Nation hoping to be world powers must make a certain percentage of arms to defend themselves, ( almost all wars have been over resources or right for commerce). Apart from the Iranians most other Arab military are ceremonial peacocks. As big as the Egyptian military, when push gets to shove, the Israelis know a lot of there arms are made in the US and know exactly how to defeat them. South African learnt from their embargo years and got a lot of arms “born in Battle”, from rifles to modified and effective fighter aircraft. the T72 is upgrades are good for now, but for how long ? no research. the reactive Armour is not from Mars, it from materials found right here in Nigeria. How are this renovations born, It is simply a genuine desire to improve on present state of things to achieve a better outcome, any mind which which is not capable of this, even when in need would be termed lazy. True the BH modification are very crude and sparely operational or effective, I would prefer that a hero’s from the front tell us if this contraption worked or not, no matter what they realized their limitation and innovated within their resources, The Nigerian Nation must do the same on a more sophisticated level and scale, it makes sense to have self propelled artillery in a highly mobile war. What exactly have we come out and got after all the NE sacrifices ( I hope at least Igirigi and self confidence plus the fact that our guys can woop BH’s ass or any of their kind at will).
      The building and fueling ( composed from household sugar) of a rocket from local materials by this youngsters is a big deal, it is the basis for scaling up and installing guidance/navigational system to deliver convectional war heads ( of cause in industrial scale/ scud scale), they should be offered scholarships or encouragement. It is a shame. I am sure not many people on this blog can replicate what they did. This is the main armament employed by Palestians and Hezzbollah. I once again, thank CP Katsina for his action. It is not over with the west and the derbys,

      • freeegulf says:

        on point oga capt

      • jimmy says:

        Let me clarify this about buying from the Suds,Buying a few does not mean national pride or security is compromise. The NA buys 6? takes three apart from different approaches ,from a hydraulic /suspension point of view and then improves upon the existing system BASED on coin experience. From a firing control p.o.v. how far can a system like this go by taking apart one of these system will tell you what it takes to increase it’s range. The third system should be taken apart from a classified POV dealing with it’s guidance and target acquisition system and then improved upon. My two kobos. Sent from AOL Mobile Mail

  13. Capt Tobias Wilcock says:

    @ Sazulu
    You have some points, but considering or even talking about buying from the Sudanese is ridiculous . There is an “in built” lack of belief in our selves, I would like to see something of similar potential built by any of our organized institutions both civil and Military, we are very lucky that we are against a designated terrorist group, I laugh when we talk of going at our unruly neighbors, the west was hoping for that, be certain all French and Western weapons or systems would be rendered in effective, Even Argentia always remember high altitude bombs sold to them and labelled as low level bombs, therefore hitting the targets but not exploding ( Of cause the Benjamins come in as well, more French investments in Nigeria than the Francophone Countries ), Any Nation hoping to be world powers must make a certain percentage of arms to defend themselves, ( almost all wars have been over resources or right for commerce). Apart from the Iranians most other Arab military are ceremonial peacocks. As big as the Egyptian military, when push gets to shove, the Israelis know a lot of there arms are made in the US and know exactly how to defeat them. South African learnt from their embargo years and got a lot of arms “born in Battle”, from rifles to modified and effective fighter aircraft. the T72 is upgrades are good for now, but for how long ? no research. the reactive Armour is not from Mars, it from materials found right here in Nigeria. How are this renovations born, It is simply a genuine desire to improve on present state of things to achieve a better outcome, any mind which which is not capable of this, even when in need would be termed lazy. True the BH modification are very crude and sparely operational or effective, I would prefer that a hero’s from the front tell us if this contraption worked or not, no matter what they realized their limitation and innovated within their resources, The Nigerian Nation must do the same on a more sophisticated level and scale, it makes sense to have self propelled artillery in a highly mobile war. What exactly have we come out and got after all the NE sacrifices ( I hope at least Igirigi and self confidence plus the fact that our guys can woop BH’s ass or any of their kind at will).
    The building and fueling ( composed from household sugar) of a rocket from local materials by this youngsters is a big deal, it is the basis for scaling up and installing guidance/navigational system to deliver convectional war heads ( of cause in industrial scale/ scud scale), they should be offered scholarships or encouragement. It is a shame. I am sure not many people on this blog can replicate what they did. This is the main armament employed by Palestians and Hezzbollah. I once again, thank CP Katsina for his action. It is not over with the west and the derbys,

    • sazulu says:

      We keep forgetting that in a military rocket, the guidance, targeting and general control and feed back systems is much more complicated than the propulsion systems. The propulsion system can easily be copied compared to the other systems in a rocket. Most times, the size and shape of the rocket is determined by the payload. No matter the determination, some calculations needs to be made.
      Again, we feel just because the lads did this then it’s uhuru. Because rockets and helicopters consists of many systems, it is multi discipline. Those making the propulsion may have no idea about the guidance system. They have most likely done their part. It will be fool hardy to think they can build the entire workable rocket by themselves.
      Like I said, what they’ve done is commendable but not enough, we can send them to school to acquire more knowledge to perfect this.
      P.S. I never mentioned that we should buy anything from the Sudanese.

  14. sazulu says:

    We keep forgetting that in a military rocket, the guidance, targeting and general control and feed back systems is much more complicated than the propulsion systems. The propulsion system can easily be copied compared to the other systems in a rocket. Most times, the size and shape of the rocket is determined by the payload. No matter the determination, some calculations needs to be made.
    Again, we feel just because the lads did this then it’s uhuru. Because rockets and helicopters consists of many systems, it is multi discipline. Those making the propulsion may have no idea about the guidance system. They have most likely done their part. It will be fool hardy to think they can build the entire workable rocket by themselves.
    Like I said, what they’ve done is commendable but not enough, we can send them to school to acquire more knowledge to perfect this.
    P.S. I never mentioned that we should buy anything from the Sudanese.

    • mcshegz says:

      Whether you believe you can, or you cannot, you are right; Its all about the mindset🙂
      Oga Sazulu. I respect your hustle sir
      #FenceNigerianBorders
      #ArmNIgeriaToTheTeeth
      #VictoryForNigeria
      #NeverAgain.

    • Kola Adekola says:

      Oga sazulu, you always have to start somewhere. If Nigeria shows strong self-belief, determination and direction by supporting the guy that has made the propulsion system (whether qualified or not), then some other guy somewhere will stun you with the guidance system.

      Na ordinary pipo laik you and me de mek dem, no be juju.

      The pioneers of any technology are never trained, rather they are people who strongly believe they can do it, just like those two young rocketeers.

      The human mind is all about creating and recognising patterns. Those who can create new patterns are creative people like inventors, musicians, artists etc, they do not need qualifications. Those need training are the less talented, whose minds must regimented in particular directions, so they can understand the new patterns.
      Lets drop this qualification argument jare; as for guidance systems being so “difficult,” the Apollo mission went to the Moon with less computational power than is available on a 1990’s pocket calculator (talk less a modern mobile phone).

      We can do anything we set our minds to do.

      • Capt Tobias Wilcock says:

        @ Sazulu Sir, The guidance of a ballistic Surface to Surface missile is the most the most basic, it is based on calculations of trajectory to a static point, using aerodynamic data and characteristics of the projectile ( in this case non active control surfaces) for which is perfected for stability – Direction ( to act in the same way in certain test environment or medium, humidity, temperature, density), mathematical calculation of the energy required in that condition to propel the projectile to a certain distance (range) and angle of firing to get a correct trajectory at a given target ( of cause their is the metallurgy of the materials used to withstand high heat/combustion without losing integrity) . It is not as complex since it is does not involve an actively guided systems like a Guided missile. the least we could make from it are grad type rockets or loads for MRLs, which we are waiting for the Chinese or who ever cares about black people to teach us, a ballistic missile/rocket is just a self propelled shell. ( of cause advance guidance systems are required for actively maneuvering projectiles and would require others). the first repeating rifle was made in a prison work shop in the US by a felon, who on recognition by the chief warder got him a right and later became the biggest gun in the west ( i think it was Winchester or Remington, the hilly billy did go no school.

      • ozed says:

        Also we tend to underestimate the amount of expertise we have in NAEME, Air force ground crews, AFIT, Navy Dockyard, the various Universities etc.

        We just need to form them into multi disciplinary project teams, challenge them with projects, fund them and get out of their way. You will of course fail a number of times, but ultimately you will succeed without doubt.

        Dont forget if you were told of a plan to build a UAV locally 10 years ago, you would fall over laughing. today we have the Gulma and Amebo. Same with igirigi or the local seaward defence boats.

        Lets believe in ourselves.

  15. Capt Tobias Wilcock says:

    @ ozed, you are right Sir, the technical crew that sent the Apollo to the moon, in exception of Brown, were all from university graduates and it was there first jobs, NASA wanted them to think and operate outside the box. This venture did not have any example to follow and required that they draw it up by them selves, Kennedy only told them to figure it out. We should start doing the same, I belive the NAEME guys and PROFORCE and built a tank if told and provided the resources in men and materials PLUS support.

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