TAI/AGUSTA WESTLAND T129 ATAK…SHAPE OF THINGS TO COME FOR THE NIGERIAN AIR FORCE ??

About beegeagle

BEEG EAGLE -perspectives of an opinionated Nigerian male with a keen interest in Geopolitics, Defence and Strategic Studies
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54 Responses to TAI/AGUSTA WESTLAND T129 ATAK…SHAPE OF THINGS TO COME FOR THE NIGERIAN AIR FORCE ??

  1. Blueblood says:

    Wow!!! May God make this come to pass,I pray that the sale of this lovely hardware should not be blocked by the West,God !!! May this be true chai !!!

  2. Number one says:

    Missions : Combat,armed recon.,armed escort,deep strike,fire support,precision strike,security,SEAD. All weather day/night capable.It has a Data and Image Transmission system(DITS). Armaments : 20mm gatling cannon,Cirit laser guided 7omm rocket,Mizrak-U ATGM. Ferry range 1000km,normal range 561km.

    • Are James says:

      …plus when you take off the layers of new systems added, you find some familiarity here. NAF is actually more familiar with this platform than the Hind.

      • Henry says:

        Correct Oga Are James. It’s virtually operates like the Agusta A109 which our military is very familiar with.

  3. beegeagle says:

    Let’s just say that ZACHARY999 AND VICTOR have NEVER failed me with their sneak previews. Otherwise, this would not make it to my frontpage.

    * Zachary foretold the delivery of six units of Beechcraft Super King Air 350 Air a month before they were either photographed or delivered

    * Zachary foretold the delivery of upgraded, dedicated ground attack variants of Alpha Jet via Air USA THREE MONTHS before it happened

    * Victor hinted at the formation of the 7 Infantry Division FIVE DAYS before it happened

    * Victor foretold the removal of service chiefs in Jan 2014, two days before it became the news

    ON THIS PROSPECTIVE SALE, it can only be cancelled…not that the procurement motions are not already underway.

    Watch this space.

    • Number one says:

      Oga Beeg any more info. regarding Nigeria’s interest in the AN-70 Transport plane and the JF-17.

  4. jimmy says:

    This is the Helicopter that Nigeria needs.Turkey like Pakistan with their JF17 want to sell this as their signature Helio.
    Problem is the Western made Hell fire ATGM .
    My question to Oga Henry can they be swapped out.

    • Are James says:

      We are probably not going to be using Hellfire missiles with this chopper, neither should we be aiming to. Those missiles are very effective but expensive. There are many equivalences in service with Turkey and Pakistan that have been qualified on this chopper and will do the job.

      A quick route to operationalization might be to train / convert /type rate existing NAF A109 pilots and the Navy’s AW 129 pilots on this new bird taking advantages of clear learning curve advantages of same manufacturer and design peculiarity.

      • Capt Tobias Wilcock says:

        Turkey has it’s own developed version of the ATGM for the T129, Also all the fire control soft ware, helmet sights, etc were developed by Turkey , the engine issue should be under the agreement signed by Turkey on assuming production of the “Mangusta” from Agusta was that it must be permitted and able to sell it’s manufactured version T129 to all countries in exception of Spain, UK and I believe Portugal.

      • Capt Tobias Wilcock says:

        Turkey has it’s own developed version of the ATGM for the T129, Also all the fire control soft ware, helmet sights, etc were developed by Turkey , the engine issue should be under the agreement signed by Turkey on assuming production of the “Mangusta” from Agusta was that it must be permitted and able to sell it’s manufactured version T129 to all countries in exception of Spain, UK and I believe Portugal. They offer a different capability from the Mi-35 if we should differentiate the very faint line between attack and assault. Mi-35 still able to position small ground unit. Should take over the role of the Gazelle on front up engagements ( Gazelle should primarily be used as scout and patrol and also used to build up the tactics, flight time of flight crew. before transiting into any off the S & D birds.

    • Henry says:

      Oga Jimmy, as you know, we are not getting any American made anti-tank missiles. However, we can get various other Turkish, Chinese, Pakistani, South-African and Italian ATGM’s which are well integrated to this Helicopter’s combat suite.

      Infact, the Turks alone already provide us a wide range of ATGM’s.

      The Helicopters are intended to be the spear in NAF’s wider Network Enabled Combat Capability Program.

      My prayer is, this deal goes through and isn’t scuttled. Initial haul of 6 units and a further other of 18 units would do just fine.

  5. beegeagle says:

    The LAST I heard about jets was last month. An equally well positioned source with tentacles which run to the VERY TOP alerted me as soon as an official delegation jetted off to RUSSIA for the possible signing of a contract for Su-30s

  6. jimmy says:

    I do not believe ANY procurement sale will be cancelled. This sale makes a lot of sense and considering the Turkish Ambassador was one of the first to meet GMB, this is one of the Western procurements I am speculative about. I will hold my Ammo till after May 29th,2015.

  7. Nice, would like to know why the ogas @ d top decided on this aircraft. Not that am criticising, just wanna hear know the reasoning behind the decision as opposed to other platforms

  8. Would be wonderful to see it through, a country like turkey can prove to b a worthy patner just like SA and Pakistan have done. Whenever possible we should parley with them

    • Are James says:

      Turkey, a NATO country is also moving independently of the US on a number of fronts. They might have been a little too “cunning” in managing ISIS and yet a section of their political leadership too supportive of Hafez Assad I would still say on the whole they have been astute at managing conflicting interests.
      I believe this country is special for its combined European – Asian identity. It is also fairly well developed in terms of defence tech and can be of considerable help in that sector. They are probably in need of our oil and gas and investment opportunities. We can leverage these nicely to get top of the line defence platforms that other more unfriendly European countries would say no to. The Otokar Cobra APC is already a confirmed success in the N. East and I predict this is the same experience we will have with more Turkish gear in our military.

  9. Ola says:

    I am happy that even more rotary wings are coming to NAF. In my humble submission though, Nigeria should have stayed longer with Hind. Go for some Super Hind or Ka-52 since we are quite used to operating their family now. At our own convenience, we should actually negotiate with Turkey for local assembly/manufacturing of these helicopters. Or even better, we could bring in knowledge from the operation of Russian helios and work towards marrying some of their attributes with the domestic production of a variant of the T129.

  10. beegeagle says:

    But we are not moving away from the MiLs! We should have 9+6 attack/utility/assault units operable as of now. The C-in-C has given approval for the replacement of all four units of Mi-24V/Mi-35P lost operationally since 2014 they should replaced.

    At another level, two dozen Mi-35M/Mi-17/Mi-171Sh Terminator are on order while a dozen Mi-35s might be on order from Belarus or may have been overtaken by this hunt for T129s.

    At the very least, we shall have a minimum of 40 Mil attack/utility/assault helics operable within eighteen months. It is obvious that the MIL helics are going to be around for a few decades longer.

    • Henry says:

      According to Reuters Africa, Nigeria currently has between 25 – 30 MI-35/24 attack Helicopters in service.

      It would make a lot of sense to cancel the proposed 12 MI-35 contracts from belarus and go full throttle for 12 T-129 ATAK Helicopters.

      Although I suspect we are getting 6 T-129’s.

    • Ola says:

      Thank you Sir Beegs for the info! At least 40? This is gladdening! 40 is a good number! I hope our Nigeria will partner with Russia to make Nigeria a major technical hub for maintenance and upgrade for the MiLs! It will be a great disservice to Nigeria if this is not achieved at this age.
      Again, I thought we only lost 2 in the last one year, 4 is a significant number. Ofcourse they have been relentlessly used t the front lines, but 4 is still a high number to be lost in one year. in my opinion. I am not aware of any of the losses being as a result of direct action of BH, in that case, is it due to maintenance or handling skills? I do hope Russia will work with Nigeria to curb such, otherwise it’d be a bad advertisement for them! We need technical crew who know these assets like the back of their hands, we also need well equipped workshops to back them up. Actually, this is supposed to be the standard for all assets acquired.

    • Deway says:

      Thank you. Whatever overheating problems can easily be corrected and fixed.

  11. Wikipedia made reference to the fact that turkey inducted the T129 pending the arrival of teh more advanced T129B. dunno if this is a fact and can anyone confirm which we would be buying?

  12. Capt Tobias Wilcock says:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/a-defining-moment-for-nigeria/2015/05/14/09751a12-f975-11e4-9030-b4732caefe81_story.html.

    Who needs their validation, what role did they play during the elections, just cannot take their eyes off all the goodies in Nigeria.

    • Are James says:

      Thats a very influential newspaper. The article itself is probably influenced by the pposition (incoming government ) elements …..attempting to buy credibility for the new government and attract investors.

  13. Maduka Oluwafemi says:

    I really do think the Mil 28 Havoc is more armoured than th TAI…Also,the Kamov Ka 50 is reputed to be the most maneouvrable helicopter. Is it gonna be a good buy?

  14. gbash10 says:

    The NAF should borrow part of the US Army’s Advanced Attack Helicopter (AAH) Program requirements that gave birth to the AH-64 Apache attack helicopter.

  15. gbash10 says:

    -survivability comprises- avoiding detection and if detected and engaged, and if shot down, walk away from the wreckage.
    Reduction of Acoustic Signature by using four bladed main tail rotors,and inlet shrouds.
    -Heat Signature reduction by using multiple ducted internally angled exhaust and shield the turbine face.The arrangement is designed to further facilitate mixing of cooled exhaust flow with rotor down wash.
    The present US Army AH-64D/E Apache Longbow attack helicopter has almost met all these requirements.

  16. gbash10 says:

    -survivability comprises- avoiding detection and if detected and engaged, and if shot down, walk away from the wreckage.
    Reduction of Acoustic Signature by using four bladed main tail rotors,and inlet shrouds.
    -Heat Signature reduction by using multiple ducted internally angled exhaust and shield the turbine face.The arrangement is designed to further facilitate mixing of cooled exhaust flow with rotor down wash.
    The present US Army AH-64D/E Apache Longbow attack helicopter has almost met all these requirements.
    Hence, the only dedicated attack chopper that is very close to the Apache is the Mi-28NE Havoc attack helicopter,ask the Indians.

    • gbash10 says:

      Amongst the T-129 ATAK,Eurocopter Tiger,Z-10,Mi-28NE and AH-64D, it is only the T-129 that has a hovering ceiling of 13000 feet above sea level while the Havoc can reache 11811 feet above sea level.

  17. gbash10 says:

    Amongst the T-129 ATAK,Eurocopter Tiger,Z-10,Mi-28NE and AH-64D, it is only the T-129 that has a hovering ceiling of 13000 feet above sea level while the Havoc can reache 11811 feet above sea level.

  18. Are James says:

    Look at the canon in front . It will run cool for a long time and never jam. Even servo motors are visible, well cooled and easily accessed for repair. The FLIR is mounted where it can do much more than just ground surveillance at night. Massive well cooled engine on small frame, all space economised, no wonder it carries as much weapon load as the Alpha Jet.

  19. gbash10 says:

    I deliberately left the Ka-50/52 attack helicopter out because it is a heavy class chopper in terms of weapon load.

  20. saleh says:

    all the reviews for this platform makes it look cool. However, i would feel more comfortable with the mil 28 havoc which have more pedigree and similar maintenance like the mil 25/35 which we already have for attack roles.

    • Are James says:

      The HAVOC won’t give “netcentric operation capability” that the ATAK does. The HAVOC is also heavier for the same weapon load carried. My major issue that kills it in the comparison scales is that apparently the MI 28 cannot protect itself from air threats like the T 129 would. This may need confirmation but if true is a bad weakness against a conventional opponent. All our neighbours also have MI 35s after all.
      Then of course an Augusta Westland product was always going to win on speed and maybe agility. Also think of a pilot on a hot, busy, dangerous day and the ease he requires for quick reaction and ergonomics of handling the bird that the T 129 would offer.

      Finally and without meaning any offence, our Ivan Ivanovich friends should stop dropping stuff out of the skies – A Russian vehicle carrying a Mexican satellite just crashed a few days ago, making the second in just a few months and this is just within the realm of mission reliability (reliability for just one mission) not the operational reliability of flight after flight over many years that air force’s want. Something is wrong with skills, design or manufacturing quality in some of the design bureaus, institutes or manufacturing plants that are churning out these stuff in Ivanland.
      As we speak a high powered, no secrets hidden probe has been launched on their Rocket Lift programme and might just be expanded to the entire aerospace sector. The MI 35 Ms on order for us are just okay for now being proven platforms with a lot of global operational experience and also length of service…. but MI 28, a radical departure in design for the Russians is what we should not touch for now.

      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2Aa6N7J5h2U

      • saleh says:

        Yes the havoc is heavier because it possesses armoured cabin which will need now against BH, the active and passive defense of the t 129 is useless against the threat of BH but suited for conventional adversaries. the conversion of the few augusta pilots who were trained for utility functions to combat duties is another issue. the Atak is the first helicopter from turkey, a country with a good link to the USA so who knows if in a year we wont be at the mercy of the yanks again, even if we are interested in it, i just feel its too early

      • gbash10 says:

        @ Are James, the Havoc can defend itself using either 8 Igla-V or Vympel R-73 air-to-air missiles.
        As it is the case with the Eurocopter Tiger attack chopper, the Havoc has parachute for both pilots to bail out,it is highly manoeuvrable as it is capable of performing eights(Nestorov loop,immelman,barrel, etc) which allows it to perform anti-missile manoeuvres more efficiently.

      • Are James says:

        I concede that the HAVOC can fire air to air missiles. I there fore retract that part. As for armoured pilot cabins , that is a nice to have for sure but the probability of hit is less for
        T 129, A-129, Cobra, Apache, Rooivaark and to some extent the Tiger and this is just from the SLIM wedge shaped design. In any case the chopper is very maneuvreable and its stand-off weapons/FLIR/electro optic combination means it will kill insurgents with AAAs from very far away being able to see them from very far away.

      • Are James says:

        @Saleh
        T 129 Will kill Boko Haram before they even see it. All they will hear either in the day time or at night is dull, thudding of propellers and …..boom!.
        8km of standoff distance is not a joke when you are on the ground looking out for enemy CHOPPER. They will take you out whilst you are still peening your eyes on the crude sights of the AA trying to swivel to cover the skies.

      • saleh says:

        Wow will be the day we shall expect the NAF to use GW for every BH technical and AA

    • Ola says:

      I’m in support of your suggestion. However, I will go for Ka-52 or Super Hind instead. In my humble opinion, we’re familiar with the Mil family already, we have pilots that are trained to use them and we have mechanics with some experience on them. It’d have been better to limit exigency purchase of rotary wings to this family. If NAF/NA have 50-60 of their variants in total, it’s not too much. Then when the immediate threats from BH are taken care of, NAF/NA can acquire a completely new system like the T-129B or a variant of it, if need be. It’d take time and resources to train personnel (pilots and mechanics) on the handling of the completely new and different system that the T-129 is. Also, you need to assess a new platform’s endurance and overall performance for a while before you heavily invest in acquiring large numbers of it in order not to run into problems. Meanwhile, if NAF wait a bit more, they should be able to patiently buy T-129B along with some tech transfer agreement or even jointly develop something with Turkey, something whose capability to function is not heavily west dependent. If T-129s are acquired today, there may be problems flying and using them to their full potentials tomorrow simply because everything from avionics to armaments are heavily west dependent.
      I am really desperate to see NAF, NA and NN acquire techs as well as use domestic resources to advance their quest for modernization and gain some independence!

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