JF17 THUNDER/FC-1 XIAOLONG
HERE IS HOW THE BASELINE JF17 THUNDER/FC-1 STACKS UP
AGAINST THE GRIPEN
Super Mukshak
Mi-35M
The applicable numbers detailed for acquisition in the 2016 tranche are as follows
– 10 units of Super Mukshak trainer aircraft
– 2 units of Mi-35M attack helicopters
– 3 units of JF17 Thunder multirole combat jets
POINTS TO PONDER
* This startup haul of JF17 Block 2 jets is almost certainly a precursor to the main haul of JF17 Block 3
* What are the possible ancillary roles for the Super Mukshak?
*.Nigeria penned a deal for a mixed haul of Mi-35M and Mi-171Sh Terminator helicopters with the Russians in Sept 2014. Does this mark the start of those deliveries or is this a follow-on order?
POSTSCRIPT
Gentlemen, please stay on THE TOPIC. Any “off topic” beelines are liable to being deleted. The propensity towards the derailment of threads has reached an unacceptable all-time high. No politicking please…
Beegeagle's Blog 
On the Mi-35M front, Zachary999 has confirmed on the previous thread that they are follow-on orders. The more the merrier.
It is heartening to know that some 2014 orders are still expected. I wish though that the NAF will ultimately reveal total numbers required and expected to be procured of each aircraft type for transparency so no funny business down the line.
I don’t see anyone doing funny DEFSEC biz until 2020. C-in-C eye dey dia. Highest priority for him for obvious reasons..
Na so e suppose be. That means we are expecting a total haul of eight Mi-35M in the near future.
Now that Russia are offloading their Mi-24PN which is primed for night attack, we should try to grab a minimum of six units to complement the in-service Mi-24B/V/35P. That should not set us back by more than US$20-25m. It is VERY IMPORTANT that we do so.
Very important operational gap to cover
New vista – a jet which features 4G technology and does what the F7 and A-Jet try to do but with a digital touch. May Day..GREAT DAY.
Still, it is not yet uhuru. The Su-27/30s in a 1:2.5 ratio with the JF17s is the irreducible minimum for total air power and potency – perfect combo of total national coverage, sub-regional reach, ground attack, BVR capability, PGM-compliant delivery systems, interdiction and air superiority.
That is not too much to ask for
On these rumoured orders “SEEING IS BELIEVING”.
We’ve been burned all too many times by our “all so loving” Government.
🙂 Naija…see wetin una don turn Henro into..a doubting Thomas Didymus.
I don’t blame you, bro. We don see ninety nine..nor be today.
@oga beegs na only u be MOD here, was i blocked from posting?
@oga Henry seeing is believing ooo
Dis our Naija don make all of us doubting tomas.
About the Super Mushak.. it has the same capabilities with our Air-Beatles.
Also the JF-17 Thunder dey lag behind the gripen and F-16 Fighting Falcon small, but we go manage am like dat.
but all the same kudos Naija (if its true ooo)
Pray, in what way does the JF 17 Block II lag the Grippen,?. I don’t think there is nothing one can do and the other can’t.
No you were not blocked. The blog’s security system sometimes decides to be very strict just to prove that it does its duty. Long comments routinely get blocked though.
Today, I saw firewalled comments from you, Gbash10, Capt Tobias and Henro and freed them up, based on personal recognition.
This one is in the budget estimate for procurement. Never came this far until now. I believe unflinchingly
the poster made by antibody has some wrong data regarding jf 17
Let’s hear it, buddy. Technically speaking though…not from an INDIA v PAK perspective..hehe.
Thrust to Weight Ratio 0.95 not >.96
Max Mach No 1.6 not mach 1.8
internal fuel capacity 3000 liters not 2300 liters
as far as I know
@Are. The JF17 and Gripen are one another’s alter ego. A British paper I read today described the JF17 as the non-Western equivalent of the GRIPEN.
Once upon a time, I read stuff which even suggested that SA were also in the hunt for the JF17 ostensibly because it does as much as the Gripen but has lower costs of acquisition, operation and maintenance.
Good news bad news. Bad news is the Numbers but then severe budget constraints come into play, let’s hope it’s year to year purchases till things shape up properly.
Am still waiting for news on air defence and radar coverage oooooo. We must be able to monitor our entire air space
I believe the RADAR COVERAGE is already on going. There has been extensive coverage of this in the News.
i like this procurement because of the History of PAKISTAN and Nigeria
A few weeks ago the CAS went to PAKISTAN oga Augustine ABURO jo please bring the thread up, LOGISTICS DEY, TRAINING dey, relationships dey and i honestly believe as OGA BEEGS said no baggage to which i add no sob story either , however I will be cautious it makes sense to me without the emotion and that to me in the marrow of Bones believe this is a done done deal.
Pakistain also has to ” come correct on this deal” Nigeria at some point will need
* Block II/ III
** A two seater
*** PGMs for these Birds
God Bless Nigeria
God bless the Nigerian Armed Forces
http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/a229/1281276/
came across this and it still prove Sukhoi jet is the way to go.
we thank them for the JF 17 but the family of sukhoi is the way forward
for me dis to-be procurement are cool provided we are not shortchanged.if it’s possible let dem add bvr missiles and so good air defense systems. b4 Chad do us Wetin turkey do Russia for Syria
Will the money recovered from Dasuki gate be used for these acquisition
Chopping, digestion and excretion are irreversible biochemical processes.
Thank you Oga Beegeagle for opening this new thread, but please be the umpire for this thread if you have some spare time. All Beegeagle battalion troopers, the 30 year old NAF jinx is about to break in 2016… Patriotic Ogas, fire on !!!!
Ideally, the plan should be to bring in th expertise of the ATE/paramount group in for the hinds, for upgrades and further modifications. Hinds were used successfully in the afghan wars by the Russians where it was called the “satan’s chariot” because of its devastating effects. The issues associated with the Nigerian hind’s gearbox could be related to the hinds suffering from the “tokunbo” syndrome. These ones in order are new ones, cannot claim to have more desert issues more than Algeria which still uses it’s hinds till this day and the direction of upgrading the hinds should give us a clue on the direction to go.
*on order
Good news, bad news are the quantities. All procurement should be Government to Government and opened up joor.
I wonder what the terms and conditions bordering this JF17 thunder deal is, do we still get transfer of tech?
@ Oga chyde. TOT with that Quantity? I doubt that.
My Ogas in the house, Oga Zacharry99 comment also has some little extra information that should be considered. We thank you for the info updates Oga Zacharry and God bless you.
The 30mm cannon procurement, what are they for? Our new Fennec Scout helicopters? Mi-35 Hinds?
The F4 practice bombs for what aircraft, JF-17 ? I guess it means some new combat pilots are coming up for training, could be for F-7 or JF-17 pilots.
It is necessary for the sake of progress to accept what level of capacity our country is willing to pay for and we see how to put icing sugar on our modest cake.
Every air force in the world has it`s doctrine and policy, written and/or unwritten. There are powerful air forces that as a matter of doctrine and policy do not operate heavy or medium jet fighters, or twin engine jet fighters. They prefer lower cost lower maintenance single engine light multi-role jet fighters of latest generation, loaded with state-of-the-art avionics and most modern weaponry. Many NATO countries fall into this category.
They believe in the fact that combat aircraft do not fight based on their airframe size, neither does twin engines determine who wins an air to air dogfight or whole bombs will fall on ground target accurately. Their doctrine believes in superior radar, IRST, missiles, ECM/EW, air to air refueling tankers, AWACS aircraft battle space support, and dedicated Electronic Warfare aircraft support.
Air power doctrine and policy will vary from nation to nation.
I see NAF in the light combat aircraft principle category since it`s inception in 1964 to the near future of 2016-2020 unless major policy changes occur, likely influenced by newly emerged operational needs of heavy jets like the Su-30 Flanker.
NAF does not manufacture money, it will only spend the money allocated to it by the FG, and what if the FG keeps allocating a low budget fund that can only afford to buy and maintain $ 30 million jets? If you know your country is not a big military spender with vision for world class armed forces equipment like Algeria, South Africa, Egypt, Morocco, then you better cut your coat according to your cloth material or else you will dress up and still look half naked.
An Su-30 Flanker costs two times more to buy and probably four times more to maintain than a JF-17 Thunder. Which one is the Nigerian government willing and ready to finance based on the annual budget allocation to Nigerian air force? We all know the answer.
The operational cost consideration is big for the SU-30 but not unsurmountable. Every country should have a latent strategic air superiority capability that might not be ongoing but can be switched on in a crisis. The problem has been bad national leadership.
For such high operational cost strategic air capability in peacetime, you should buy only about six of the aircraft with the highest capability say the SU 35. After acquiring those, you put three of them in storage (which also entails spending some money, up to 20,% of normal operational costs could be used used in storage alone if you are doing it properly).
Resource your pilots, train and fly the remnant three aircraft for practice and certification purposes only.
Then you have capability without breaking the bank.
When countries in your neighbourhood wish to try any funny business, their client states in Europe go to them with pictures and data of high flying aircraft with powerful radars shooting down uav targets at distances of 100km , this sends a chill down spines and immediate attempts at gap bridging. However the financial implications of such ventures tone down all impetuousity and you have peace in your neighbourhood.
Air Marshal S.B Abubakar, I say dan Allah, please let the almighty use you as an instrument of change and please personally use your influence with the President to ensure that the JF-17 Thunder enters NAF service in first quarter 2016.
The globally visible dangerous weakness gap in Nigerian air defence capability needs urgent plugging to avoid any external air aggression embarrassment from our neighbour up north in the lake basin where border area oil drilling dispute may occur unexpectedly, and also, we may need precision air strikes on Boko Haram anytime.
Arab countries as small as Jordan, are flying 4th generation jet aircarft with PGMs against ISIS terrorists in Iraq. Let Nigeria arm itself for any potential Libyan ISIS related threat that may creep and drift into our Sahel region, and also for any MJNTF requirement for precision air strikes on Boko Haram across our borders based on MJNTF mutual multi-national memorandum on rules of engagement.
Shugaban NAF, wannan magana yana bukatar ka je gaba da sauri da sauri.
Regarding the ancillary role for the Mukshak beyond training. it appears a good aircraft for surveillance in low risk theaters. maritime surveillance, border patrol and the likes .
“Armament
Hardpoints: 6× under-wing, maximum external load 300 kg (660 lb) total
Possible loads:
2× 7.62 mm machine gun pods
2× 75 mm unguided rocket pod (7 rounds)
4× 68 mm unguided rocket pod (7 rounds)
6× wire-guided anti-tank missiles (ATGMs)
”
It packs a punch that would fit into the roles mentioned above. The Customs and Immigration services could do with some of their own.
Gentlemen, fellow bloggers, fellow patriots. I believe our joint calls on this blog has helped bring us this new hope of a near done deal for 4th generation aircraft acquisition by Nigeria.
The attrition/loss rate on F-7 jets, the dwindling TTL (Total Technical Life) of Alpha jets and L-39 jets, the emergence of a new air power in the lake Chad basin with total and devastating air superiority over Nigeria, have been our main reason for renewing the Beegeagle blog`s 5 year old cry for NAF to be bestowed a befitting 4th generation multi-role jet fighter by the FG.
We increased our cries with a ten-fold louder noise from June to December this year 2015, and it is now clear that based on plans put on the table by NAF`s new budget, it is very very likely our prayers will be answered in 2016.
We can probably say there is now a 90% chance we are getting JF-17 Thunder into NAF service come 2016. So, what do we do to add icing sugar on this brown cake? It is not the greatest jet fighter in town or in Africa where Su-30 MK jet with PESA radars and Rafale jet with AESA radars are flying from Uganda to Algeria to Egypt, but hey my brother, if your wife no fine, shay you no go buy her beauty enhancement products to make her presentable in public when she stands by your side bearing your name?
Here is your likely wife…..Nigeria`s very likely new bride that we have proposed to marry in 2016 barring any bad omen or jinx upsetting the already well set apple cart, God forbid bad thing o ! Amen.
So good to hear that the last trip by the COAS was not for photo shoot, hope we continue on this path towards getting it right. Hope we also have some of this news in the NA and NN
OPTIONS FOR ARMING NAF JF-17 THUNDER JETS
===========================================
JF-17 is comparable to Gripen jet (Both have pulse doppler radar which is obsolescent in modern warfare) as well as the 1973-2003 variants of the F-16 jet that carry pulse doppler radars, those are F-16A and C variants, except for the fact that the old F-16 radars have over twice the range of current JF-17 and Gripen radars. The upgraded or new build F-16E has modern AESA radar.
Combat aircraft will fight according to their on board avionics/sensors and munitions, not according to their names. The other factor however, is in close quarters dogfight where maneuverability will add advantage. However, the JF-17 matches the Gripen C, as well as the F-16A and C in maneuverability.
So what do we do in Nigeria if we get the JF-17 for NAF? They are likely coming in current Pakistani configurations with Chinese avionics and weaponry, but if we want our jets to serve as deterrent to potential aggressors, we MUST DOUBLE STEP UP IT`S FIGHTING CAPABILITY or else we just have a single step above the old F-7 jets moving from 3rd generation to basic 4th generation of the lowest order.
It is safer and wiser that we transform all Nigerian owned JF-17 into multi-role 4+ or call it 4.5 generation jet fighters for air superiority, land strike, maritime strike, and reconnaissance roles. If they come in basic 4th gen specs now, we can simply upgrade them later when more money becomes available to NAF.
■ Option One : Western avionics and weapons mix.
Barring any eastern vs western bloc political issues and technology protection issues, NAF can opt for Israeli plus Italian avionics and weapons. Pakistani F-7 PG has Italian Grifo-7 radars, which were locally manufactured in hundreds under licence in Pakistan`s Kamra factory. If the Pakistanis don`t want Israeli involvement on their aircraft, we can do Italy instead.
1. Italian Selex Raven AESA radar (Same as on Next Generation Gripen E)
2. Israeli ELM-2052 AESA radar
3. Italian Selex Skyward-G IRST (Also planned for Gripen NG)
4. Israeli EL/L-8273/4 IRST
5. Israeli EL/L-8247/8 RWJS self protection and electronic warfare jamming
6. Italian Selex BriteCloud self protection and ECM (Offered for new Gripen E)
7. Israeli 5th generation missiles…Python-5 SRAAM and I-Derby ER BVRAAM
.
@Augustine
For radar and ECM suites, power on board is important, nose cone space is important, integrateability is important, standards of design and manufacture. NATO or other. The plane is open architecture so I think more than any other aircraft the platform can be made into anything as you like.
However I believe if you add all the above factors and the costs associated…another solution lurks.
Indeed you have just justified the paltry numbers we are getting of Block II .
Let us keep the current order to one squadron and variate the contract to reflect Block III as the remainder part of the order which is 2018 delivery kind of stuff.
In 2017, we buy and receive six units of SU 35 to plug all capability gaps while waiting for the Block III which would never be as capable but makes up the numbers and mix we require in that role.
You guy’s should wait let us see the planes first before you jinx the deal with your up-grade wish list.
LOL. Wisdom speaks. I retract.
Oga Henry, me I will not wait to see the JF-17 aircraft land before I speak my mind. I feel it is very vital to comment on this topic before contracts are signed and NAF has our ideas to think about and adopt what is best for Nigeria.
Nobody knows everything when it comes to technical military matters, NAF can use our little ideas too and add them to their own big ideas for the good of our country.
If we dont buy the jet eventually, fine, no wahala, I have done my part as a Nigerian concerned citizen. I go free with clear conscience.
If we buy the jet in 2016 or 2018, no need to repeat the comments being made now, the archived records are there, and if I were a NAF officer, I would copy and save this thread on my laptop and flash drive, then print out on paper to my shelve as back up.
Keep quiet at this crucial moment? no I wont, na so we kept quiet and got F-7 jets dumped on NAF with ZERO guided strike weapons and ZERO BVR missiles.
I will do my part and leave the rest to FG and NAF.
Didn’t know, we had migrated, so I posted on the donation thread. Sorry
Oga Augustine, greetings. In regards to ops doc of those airforces, they have coverage from NATO and uncle Sam
Moreover we don’t have all the support sys they do, that’s why we need a medium/heavy MRCA that can do a lot of things @ the same time! The J17 doesn’t have the range, speed, payload and maneuverability need to cover and we are not in the habit of procuring enough to have dedicated role capable platforms.
Talking money, we know that we could have gotten the 18 ex India Su 30 for $270mn! Was that too much? Or is Uganda richer than us that they could get 6 brand new flankers? Yes, we’ve always had credit crunch courtesy our chopping ogas but we’ve mad ultra dumb and scandalously ridiculous choices when we come to procurement in the not too distant past.
Pls Note: I have nothing against the Thunder. I just think that we should be realistic about what we expect it to do and don’t put. I also would like us to take into consideration future threats not just our ‘friend up north’. If things goes south, we would sooner be facing Rafale fighters more than Migs!
Oga Adetayo, on point all the way. Its a perfect platform for surveillance! But wire-guided ATGM don’t mix well with tractor propellers, a mmw or laser guided version is better choice. Turkey, China, Russia and Israel have those for sale.
Oga Are James, spot on! But rather than do 6, I’d say we shouldn’t less than 30. 24 for 2 squadrons with 6 trainers! Remember that for proficiency, the pilots need to train. Operational use of 6 will either run fatigue the platform sooner or if used miserly produce sub par pilots. Again, we are more likely to face Rafales than fulcrums
As for Thunder/Gripen comparism, much ink has been spilled! They are in no way equals from speed to range, maneuverability to survivability. Service ceiling, instantaneous and sustained turn rate, sink rate, take off and landing roll distance to cost of operation, maintainance and durability! In all spectrum and missions, WVR to BVR, surveillance, strike, interception.
The only wins the Thunder has is purchasing cost and freedom from political interface.
The question is therefore, by how much is the Gripen better than the Thunder? Is it 2x as it cost 2x. Of course baring pilot quality, one Gripen will have it hands full taking on 2 Thunders!
I would still take the Thunder over the Gripen anytime! why? Cos when the chips are down, its the bird that can take to the air that counts!
That said, we must procure the Thunder in number to be our work horse and get it up to spec the best we can while getting a hand full S Flankers to compliment
Oga Beegs, salute sir! On the J17 being the non-western equivalent of the Gripen, in concept, I would totally agree but in capability, I would take that with a bucket of salt! That was just British press scare mongering with regards to Falkland/malvinas politicking
@ifiok umoeka, not entirely true sir. Lets put aside the scare mongering tactics of the British press, there is some point that should be noted. The only better Gripen variant is the new Gripen-NG which technically is still under development and that too can be countered by the JF-17 Block III.
The seemingly shiny Gripen with all its features cannot comfortably outperform the JF-17 if put side by side, even if we disregard the huge difference in costs. The key advantage of the Gripen in form of western avionics can be easily countered by the JF-17 through modifications and upgrades. At present Gripen is superior in avionics which is close to state of the art. Hence improving the Gripens avionics requires considerable research and development. To upgrade the JF-17 all we have to do is port the already developed avionics suit of the J-10 into the JF-17. This will take far less time.
The Algerian airforce for example suffered due to the withdrawal of the soviet bloc assistance and had to adapt to new realities from 1992 in the campaign against islamist insurgent groups. One of the sticking points that needed focus was upgrading the Soviet-era helicopter fleet including night vision capability. What seemed impossible was achieved by modifying the existing platform to suit their needs, including further enhancements of the existing system.
The end result? Algeria still has its 34 Mi-24 super hinds in service till date, 13 years after the first set of deliveries a feat most countries operating the same or rival platform cannot achieve.
Nigeria can achieve the same feat with the JF-17 through proper gap analysis and threat assessment, with a view to address the limitations of the platform. After which a clear objective and action plan should be drafted with capable partners at a reasonable cost and time frame. The new JF-17N should be unique in its characteristics to perform at the level (if possible) of Rafales and Gripen-NG
■ Option Two : Chinese / Pakistani avionics and weapons only.
The Pakistanis claim they chose the current JF-17 Chinese KLJ-7 pulse doppler radar with estimated 105 km maximum range because after testing it`s capability in comparison to western made radars they already have in service, the performance is equal.
Combat range for radars will depend on target size being engaged. You can detect an Su-30 Flanker at 100 km away, but same radar may not detect an Alpha jet at exactly same 100 km distance away. JF-17 radar is claimed to have 105 km maximum detection range air to air and 85 km air to surface.
The Chinese 5th generation air to air missiles, short range PL-10 and beyond visual range PL-13 are said to be near ready to enter service from 2016 if claims and photos reveale are anything to go by. We should arm our JF-17 with PL-10 and PL-13 when the missiles are available in the market.
1. PL-9C 4th generation SRAAM, we buy more, and not transfer the ones on F-7
2. PL-12 4th generation BVRAAM, very essential for NAF to buy this missile NOW
3. PL-10 5th generation SRAAM, very important for dogfights advantage
4. PL-13 5th generation BVRAAM, very important for beyond visual range combat
5. CM 102 anti-radiation missiles for SEAD on enemy air defences, a vital edge
6. Ra`ad stealthy cruise missile, will add 350 km extra to combat strike range
7. CM-400AKG supersonic anti-ship missile to support navy in anti-ship strike
8. NORINCO GB-6 stealthy GPS/INS guidance glide bomb/wide area munition dispenser, will add cluster munition capability for anti-personnel, anti-armour, anti-airfield/airport runway, for long range stand off air to ground strikes at 130 km safe distance away from enemy ground based anti-aircraft defences. Mass killer precision guided glider bomb.
9. Mix of cheap low cost Laser guided, Satellite guided, and Electro-Optical guided bombs of various sizes and weights from 25 kg to 500 kg with stand off ranges from 20 km to 60 km
10. Various multi-purpose unguided bombs and rockets
11. Helmet Mounted Sights for dogfight advantage
12. DEEC electronic warfare/self protection suite
13. KG300G Self-Protection Jamming Pod
14. WMD-7 day/night, land/sea targeting pod with IR, TV and Laser
15. KZ900 ELINT / SIGNIT reconnaissance pod
16. Long range Infra red and TV Camera day/night surveillance/recce pod
17. A-Star EOTS-89 or EORD-31 Infra Red Search and Track….IRST for detecting stealth jet fighters and for use when radar is deliberately switched off to hide presence
.
@Augustine, I personally believe the Chinese/Pakistani route is the way we should go in the foreseeable future. Reason is that, we already have the Chinese drones with some of the PL-xx series missiles in use with these drones, and we are also using the same on our F-7s. Using the same supplier for our missile needs has a lot merits and also eliminates the risks/fear of sanctions if the supplier is a renegade like China.
What we should focus on is to push for ToT with the JF-17 purchase and get them in huge numbers so that we can negotiate for add ons in the form of weapons, while we push for integration with our existing architecture (ground control systems, radars, Mission Planning Systems …)
@ifiok umoeka, not entirely true sir. Lets put aside the scare mongering tactics of the British press, there is some point that should be noted. The only better Gripen variant is the new Gripen-NG which technically is still under development and that too can be countered by the JF-17 Block III.
The seemingly shiny Gripen with all its features cannot comfortably outperform the JF-17 if put side by side, even if we disregard the huge difference in costs. The key advantage of the Gripen in form of western avionics can be easily countered by the JF-17 through modifications and upgrades. At present Gripen is superior in avionics which is close to state of the art. Hence improving the Gripens avionics requires considerable research and development. To upgrade the JF-17 all we have to do is port the already developed avionics suit of the J-10 into the JF-17. This will take far less time.
The Algerian airforce for example suffered due to the withdrawal of the soviet bloc assistance and had to adapt to new realities from 1992 in the campaign against islamist insurgent groups. One of the sticking points that needed focus was upgrading the Soviet-era helicopter fleet including night vision capability. What seemed impossible was achieved by modifying the existing platform to suit their needs, including further enhancements of the existing system.
The end result? Algeria still has its 34 Mi-24 super hinds in service till date, 13 years after the first set of deliveries a feat most countries operating the same or rival platform cannot achieve.
Nigeria can achieve the same feat with the JF-17 through proper gap analysis and threat assessment, with a view to address the limitations of the platform. After which a clear objective and action plan should be drafted with capable partners at a reasonable cost and time frame. The new JF-17N should be unique in its characteristics to perform at the level (if possible) of Rafales and Gripen-NG
sorry…double post
Thank you for this contribution.
To achieve true parity with Rafales and Grippen NG, the upgrade costs in terms of manweeks of work + hardware retrofits for large nos of JF 17 Block II have to be balanced against the advantages or lack of in waiting for the JF 17 Block III when the time comes. The winning option then goes into comparison in terms of feasibility and effectiveness with SU/34/35 or whatever is available from the Russians.
If we have refuelling capability, Block II and Block III will easily knock out any Sukhoi from consideration for policy makers worried about operation costs.
😀
“Block II and Block III will easily knock out any Sukhoi”
lolzzz
no offence but really I had to read it twice and still could not believe it.
sukhoi 30/34/35 r heavy category aircrafts and r giving nightmares to us military planners even with f15 f16 f35 f22 including rafales and typhoons ,and u say jf17 block 2 and 3 will knock it out, lolzz .
jf 17 is a light category aircraft , therefore there is no comparison between the two.
even the Pakistanis admit that.
while comparison between jf 17 and gripen is valid since they belong to the same category, but I don’t think anybody here and almost all blogs has the necessary technical proficiency to really do justice to the capabilities of both the aircraft in terms of comparative analysis.
in terms of
Power – For carrying out most of the manoeuvres (like wingover)
stability – advance full digital FBW
Inertia – roll inertia , damping of the wings
Wing Loading
Control Surfaces
corner speed
Instantaneous turn-rate
angles of bank (AOB) and angles of attack (AOA)
radars peak power and range performance , radar size
combat persistence
internal volume for mission avionics
high alpha low/high speed manoeuvrability
sensor fusion, networking and engine and flight controls
Cockpit Technology
Inertial and Satellite Navigation Equipment
Radar Absorbent Materials and composite Structures
first look / shot capability
aircraft kinematic performance at all altitudes
High Power Aperture and peak power rating of Radars , jamming immunity and multichannel capability etc etc
supermaneuverability and armament release capability at supercritical angles of attack
helmet-mounted sights and IRST
ability to get into the clutter notch where the pulse doppler radars r ineffective via utilizing high kinetic performance manoeuvres.
this is only the tip of the iceberg,
so better option is supporting Augustine effort in spelling out / advising upgrades and better equipments in support of the JF17N, I think this will be worth the effort and will lead to a even better version of JF17 in Nigerian service and will even kick start Nigerian aviation industry.
“Knock out from consideration by any cost conscious decision maker”. This was what I posted. I never ever suggested that JF 17 Block III could ever match SU 30/33/34/35.
For Nigeria , the threat assessment gaps don’t have iron walls between them so it is a spectrum of capability gaps. Therefore for cost conscious planners a mix of platforms can do the job with technology permitting.
@ifiok umoeka
I really liked ur last reply to me in the previous thread.
thank you
as for the questions u asked
ASRAAM was selected because both the missile and launch aircraft (jaguar) are british hence easier integration with minimum modification.
brahmos integration to su30 took nearly 3-4 years and still on going , because aircraft had to be modified extensively , resulting in a the development of newer variant ” super su30 mki ” , wind tunnel studies , aerodynamic flight profiling (separation & carriage ) had to be done , new carriage pylons with related electronics was built from scratch , load bearing dynamic analysis and modelling at subsonic and supersonic speeds had to done etc.
interesting part is both weapon and launch aircraft are Russian , still it is taking lot of time . why?
israeli python 4 and 5 is for LCA , integration will be easy since 100 ordered Tejas Mark 1A is confirmed to carry Israeli the EL/M-2052 AESA radar.
Oga Sabatino9, the NG was a demo, the Gripen E/F are not. Its in production stage. The J17 block 3 is still in design stage. It has serious potentials though but it greatest challenge is the engine, not even the avionics and weapons!
The standard in radar ranging is usually against 5m2 (radar cross section in the frontal aspect) size objects in the aerial space. Moreover, RCS isn’t the only parameter, IR signature
No one has been able to post any parity or superiority the Thunder has over the Gripen. From the airframe to the systems, the Gripen trumps the Thunder. I don’t know why we are debating this. Perhaps the DSI (ease of maintainance and stealth) is the only advantage the Thunder has frame wise. Like I said, I spite not the Thunder, but I will not glorify it beyond its worth and given the money and choice, I would go the way of the Thunder. That’s not because its @ par with the Gripen but because its cheap and without strings!
As for ur range of missiles, I say buy them all. Note: we can’t buy 300km range missiles and u know why! If we want range, we acquire the tech and (warhead, sensors and seekers, fuel, aerodynamics/heat management and propulsion) and extend the range all we want.
More so, Oga Sabatino9, what happens if (when) our national interest cross with the Chinese or Pakistanis? That’s why where ever we look to, it should be to get tech-know so that we can afford to look inward
Talking Mil mi 35m, what if the Pakistanis intends to transfer 2 from their stock? What of if all these are part of one deal? Pakistan doesn’t fly any hind variant but this year, they had reached a deal for mi 35m choppers. They are said to be testing some. They were also talking with the Turks for Ta129s, Chinese for z10s (which they have started receiving) and the US for AH1Z! Just thinking.
they will need Russias consent, if they have it then only can it be transferred.
it is the global norm
@Ifiok_Umuoeka, the advantages of the Gripen over the JF-17 is eroded by the singular factor of cost, and the limitation of available Missiles for the Gripen. The main factor in accessing the perceived advantage should be within the Nigerian context.
Most if not all of the Gripen systems are suited to using NATO missiles and with Nigeria constantly walking a thin line between being sanctioned or otherwise, it only takes an honest mistake or miss-step by the FG for the entire fleet to be ground. Does the name Jaguar ring a bell?
Secondly the extensive use of Composite materials on the Gripen without a considerable reduction of its weight gives cause for concern, when compared with the JF-17. Just as composite materials used on the F-22 raptor causes maintenance issues after every flight, do we have the luxury of funds to support such extra requirements with the Gripen.
How are we even sure of the acclimatization of the Gripen parts with our storage facilities? I believe any product manufactured by either China or Russia is a winner any day anytime, owing to the complex nature of their weather, from very hot deserts to the Siberian icy mountains.
Another advantage is that the combat radius on the JF-17 – 1352 km (Block I) / Gripen C/D 800 km, plus the software is written in C++, which is also used on the more advanced F-35. This makes it easy to get some regular devs for the platform from the already existing pool of civilian developers out there, which reduces the cost of training a new programmer from scratch on the military programming language used on comparable systems.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that the JF-17 is the holy grail of 4th gen fighter jets and we can challenge the Rafales, Su-27s, MiGs of this world. No, what I’m pointing out is the fact that as of today, the most reasonable fighter out there that can be purchased without worries for a country susceptible to sanctions is the JF-17. What we decide to do with it, or the direction we decide to take the program is our choice to make.
This is a credible scenario.
If the supposition is true and the corollary that the Russians approved it, it would confirm my previous suspicion about waiting times for platforms from Russia.
The Pakistanis always have options. For choppers, MI 28s are always in consideration by them and even the Kamovs. Everything the Pakis want they get …because they have nuclear weapons. No world superpower will allow a regional nuclear power to be too weak in conventional forces.
Wishing very Happy New Year 2016 in advance to General Beegs and members of this esteemed blog.
Thanks oga Bharat, wish you the same happy new year ahead.
We also wish peace and renewed friendship between India and Pakistan as the prime minister of India visited Pakistan a few days ago.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/25/asia/india-pm-visits-pakistan/
Not going to happen. The Pakistanis think they are courageous, bold and the India is the most cunning country in the world.
Thanks, Oga Augustine. Indian PM’s surprise visit to Pakistan was preceded by nearly 2 months of peace at the border and LoC, with guns falling silent. Now how long will this peace hold is a difficult question.
It can be of considerable length or be short lived, with one side wishing happy new year to other with smoking barrels. Can’t say.
So, we only can wish that peace prevails.
Hey, that man Bharat :-). Where have you been for six months, bro?
Hello, Gen. was a bit busy all this while.
What is the point of going for this cheap deal, if we are only gonna buy 3 planes.
As with every thing nigeria does, I am underwhelmed and dissappointed.
If u guys care to remember on this blog, I called it correctly while it happened.
Those then in power simply diverted the entire defense budgets into their pockets, while soldiers were left high and dry.
I thank God, PMB is now repeating what I said on this blog,
The last administration, thru their TREASONOUS theft forced many NA soldiers into mutiny.
But this new administration has to demonstrate, that while not corrupt, they fully understand the peril Nigeria is daily exposed to, if she carries on with this anemic defense posture.
3 jets to match Chads 3 migs ? Are we crazy? Is that all threat DSS can foresee for nigeria ?
PMB, now is not the time to be cheap and miserly with Nigeria’s defense.
The situation calls for a multi billion USD investment in defense procurement and manufacturing, and NOT cheap jets by the 3s.
Oga doziex, official NAF recommendation still stands at 25 to 40 units/examples of JF-17 Thunder jet fighters.
It is up to FG to provide the funds for large numbers procurement. If NAF’s capital expenditure budgetary allocation from FG for procurement 2016 is say $ 200 million out of the $ 700 million budgeted for the whole defence sector, then NAF cannot buy more than 3 units of JF-17 because there are dozens of other aircraft/helicopters to buy and the cost of daily expendables….munitions/ordnance to import with same limited dollars.
The NAF list from Oga Zacchary already totals about $ 200 million if we estimate, so what is left? Nothing. NAF can only afford 3 JF-17 from that peanut budget allocation. Blame goes to who? NAF? No. FG? No and Yes.
We cannot blame Federal Government for economic cash crunch that is hammering Nigeria now, FG does not fix oil prices, House of reps is even threatening to cut the budget down by reducing the budgeted oil price of $38 down to $30 per barrel.
Better we blame past Nigerian governments from years May 1999 to May 2015, the governments that refused to buy even one single 4th generation jet fighter when oil prices ranged between $80 to $110 dollars.
Can we blame FG? Yes but not yet, only later after about one full year in office. We will blame FG if it cannot take a Chinese/Russian loan of $ 1 billion for NA, NAF, NN for strictly new weapons/equipment procurement 2016, then we can blame the FG for endangering national security by singing the NO MONEY song for a whole year without finding other sources of funds like CBN loan, NNPC loan, legislative approval to borrow from our own national forex reserves, foreign bank loans or government loans from China and Russia.
http://www.channelstv.com/2015/12/29/minister-of-defence-promises-increased-funding-for-military/
My GreatCyberGenerals, as an observer who hardly makes comments on this blog I salute everyone who has commented on this particular thread. With my background in Military Intelligence I can see the debate of J17 Thunder vs Gripen panning out, but I would still come to the conclusion that as a Military Force, whatever our Military Procurers in NAF HQ decide we should still be able to conduct the current and foreseeable warfare seamlessly. When you look at the Nigerian warfare terrain both internally and externally, we are all aware of the challenges facing this great nation of ours. Boko haram is regarded as our current and immediate danger internally, but I can categorically conclude that defeating them does not eradicate our enemy within. We are all aware from the Nigerian history that another theatre is just in the pipeline which could lead to a full blown civil war if not managed properly. Now that deals with the internal issues, looking externally we are surrounded by francophone allies that can turn on us overnight especially if they spot military weakness in us. Geographically, we are very exposed which is why we need to capitalise on strategic hardware and software the Nigerian Military Procurers can supply the fighting force in order to defend ourselves from the enemy within and our external enemies.
God Bless the Federal Republic of Nigeria, and may all our gallant heroes currently fighting the insurgency in the North East Nigeria be blessed.
Quite a number of things are not right about this list- i thinks its an heavily abridged version
1. Super Mushak is not the best option for training for JF17-its a basic procedure trainer- it also breaks NAF tradition of making sure that every mainstream trainer as secondary combat ability-though 6 hard point but at 270Km/Hr and ceiling of 6000m-it might be hit by a dane gun (just kidding)-Conclusion: Super Mushak replaces the beetle somehow Karakorums or better still L15s must be hidden somewhere in the list-More so that JF 17 does not have a trainer version yet
2. Two pieces of Mi35 is a ridiculous order- Most likely its part of a subsisting delivery schedule or replacement delivery for attrition losses
3. JF17 is a strategic buy- the purpose is more in the politics than the capacity-can write a bible on this. For those expecting AESA,BVR,ASHM…… its not gonna happen now. Rather I expect a specialized version optimized for PGM delivery (Think Russian FAB and Chinese H series) using Belgian/Native Chinese optronics (it would be a great mistake not to have this )- the exact source will be difficult to tell but its definitely not going to be Isreali- there is a strong politics from supplier that will work against this.
France is playing a great role in block 3 avionics and if NAF insists we might get an hybrid version in terms of radar/sensor -a mix of Paki and French -NOT Chinese KLJ-7 but something french like:however my mind tells me we shall only get an advanced version of properly copyrighted Italian Griffo radar made in Pakistan for other version armed with PL9 and PL12 -This meets our threat assessment cheaply.
4. Is JF17 a better but that Gripen-YES-YES-YES-Get me right Gripen is a better machine-but quality has a lot of non concrete parts!
-Little politically controlled parts
-Help available for upgrades from several sources
-Cheaper to procure
– Supplier is easier to arm twist to request free creams on biscuits
I have been thinking about the haul of ten units of Super Mushshak trainers. Why TEN? Here was what came to mind….
Having failed to get the ALX Super Tucano but still keen on pistons, I imagined that six units of the Mushshak might be committed to basic training while four units will join the ground attack missions at the frontlines. In that role, the Mush would be used in the same manner as Libya used SIAI Marchetti SF 260Ws in their invasion of northern Chad during the 1980s.
INFO reaching me today suggests AFFIRMATIVELY that at least some of the Mushshak will see combat action.
http://defence.pk/attachments/318ced2f1827164d46d48044f6511b7c-jpg.146000/
Oga Beegeagle, I was going to talk on the Super Mushshak, the JF-17 just took so much time to comment on. Not done yet. However my first word on Super Mushak is that those who say it is just another Air Beetle class so why buy it? They are very very wrong.
Please gentlemen, I am sorry to say, that comparison is wrong. Don’t be offended sirs.
Anybody with say $100,000 cash can buy Air Beetle kits from open market and piece them together at home, Air Beetle is officially labelled as HOME-BUILT AIRPLANE !
Never compare that ancient obsolete Air Beetle toy basic trainer aircraft that American civilians assemble at home in their car garages, which Nigeria bought it’s CKD parts and NAF assembled in Nigeria, claiming an imaginary ‘made in Nigeria’ stunt, never compare Air Beetle junk with a modern day 4th generation Super Mushshak basic trainer/COIN combat capable aircraft with PGM capability.
Okada Vs Mercedes car.
The pilot shown in the Video seating in the aircraft is Capt Augustine Okpe, he retired from the Nigerian Airways and later head of accident investigation of the NCAA, he lives in Lagos,
Gripen C is NOT superior to JF-17 Thunder block II, anyone claiming it is better should please prove it with technical facts.
• Both jets have obsolescent pulse doppler radar, by estimates, Gripen has better look up range with extra 15 km, JF-17 has a better look down range with extra 15 km, so what ?
• RCS or radar cross section theories are not facts, manufacturers do not specify RCS on most combat aircraft in this world, I mean most not all. Private people who do not have the jets at home just sit down and calculate some funny RCS figures and post on free internet. Speculations are not facts.
• Both jets have no IRST
• Both jets have supersonic speed. Gripen is a little faster, while JF-17 flies a little higher
• More Gripens have crashed in accidents than JF-17
• Watch YouTube international air show display videos, JF-17 has superior dog fight maneuverability and BEATS the Gripen CLEARLY WITH NO DOUBT.
• Gripen has a little extra weapons payload, while JF-17 carries a wider variety of weapons types than Gripen.
• JF-17 has better combat range/radius
• Both jets carry ECM, recce, and targeting pods
Gripen has the usual western made ‘must be better’ propaganda media support. JF-17 has the usual eastern made ‘should be inferior’ propaganda trying to rubbish it because a 3rd world nation has produced a jet to rival 1st world made F-16.
Let someone come with FACTS and not personal imaginations of which is better, or have you seen them both in real life combat engagement head to head and one shot down the other?
“Watch YouTube international air show display videos, JF-17 has superior dog fight maneuverability and BEATS the Gripen CLEARLY WITH NO DOUBT”
air show stunts/displays by most fighter aircrafts r in clean configuration that is with out combat weapons load , so it is not possible to judge the actual operational performance , since in loaded configuration the aircrafts kinematic performance / manoeuvre is different .
so how is it possible to rate a aircraft verses another when they r not in actual combat loaded configuration and also when the 2 aircrafts r not even flying against each other in mock combat. but in 2 different videos doing different manoeuvres.
note jf 17 airshow flight have all been in clean configuration gripen i don’t know since i was not too interested in it but it too must follow the global norm at airshows.
Oga lachit, go watch Gripen and JF-17 air show videos with both jets carrying no payload to even the scales, it’s all over free internet. JF-17 maneuverability beats Gripen, go watch and erase your doubts, seeing is believing as they say. Try avoid bias my dear friend.
Oga lachit, read my comments well before you criticize. I am not a genius, but I don’t talk like my head is on vacation while my body is at work.
I said it before…. “Let someone come with FACTS and not personal imaginations of which is better, or have you seen them both in real life combat engagement head to head and one shot down the other?. ”
Try not to confuse people with speculations lachit, face reality. If your are not sure of something, go find out first instead of posting speculative confusion. Thanks.
sorry to have pointed out a fact
I am not criticizing anybody or any aircraft
@all
if anybody knows a aviation expert or a experienced military pilot ask him what I have stated if they say it is speculation plz just mention it here and I will stop posting comments on topics related to aviation forever
good night
time to take a long break
IS IT IMPOSSIBLE for Western commentators to be objective? So JF17 is a 3G aircraft in this guy’s mind?
http://www.janes.com/article/56924/pakistan-pushes-for-jf-17-sale-to-sri-lanka
JF-17 Thunder simulator for training.
I hear comments that JF-17 does not have a simulator, where is that speculation originating from, tales by moonlight?
There is no dedicated JF 17 simulator
Presidential Media Chat. – defence and security is one of the priority areas.
Can people please push in defsec questions on military procurement please.
#askbuhari on twitter
Funny to hear my honourable friends and Ogas say how will NAF pilots fly JF-17 since it has no trainer version as at today, and we have no 4th generation Lead In Fighter Trainer jets (LIFT) like Yak-130 and L-15. Come on my brothers, what are ground based training simulators meant for?
Does German air force have jet LIFT like Yak-130 or L-15 ? No, they use similar new aircraft to Mushshak, Beechcraft Texan, plus their old T-38 jets. Does Indian air force have LIFT? No, they use Deepak aircraft similar to Super Mushak. Sweden is thinking to replace it’s old jet trainers with Super Tucano.
How is Ethiopia flying Su-27 flankers with no modern LIFT jet trainer except the old L-39 jets? Most countries that have 4th gen jets like F-16, MiG-29, Su-27, Eurofighter Typhoon, still use the old or upgraded F-5B Freedom Fighter jets as LIFT….NAF can use Alpha jets, L-39, and F-7TI and add 2 seater JF-17 trainer version when it comes to market….France has no modern LIFT, how are they flying 4++ GEN Rafale ?
How can a NAF pilot with 5 years experience on Alpha jet 2005-2010, 5 years experience on F-7 jet 2010-2015, now train on 4th gen cockpit ofSuper Mushak for 6 months, then JF-17 simulator 6 months, JF-17 jet for 6 months, and he cannot fly the JF-17 as a combat qualified fighter pilot in 18 to 24 months ?
My ogas, NAF can wait till other urgent needs are met before investing in Yak-130 or L-15. Let us arm up our JF-17 to killer status first. NAF can please settle their litigation out of court and speed up the return of our 12 units of MBB-339 fully upgraded to CD variant 4th generation LIFT jet….so what is the urgent need for Yak-130 or L-15 as at now that we are managing money and we can only buy 3 JF-17, while the Su-25 frogfoot remains cancelled for now, and Mi-35 Hinds needs more numbers to rotate in combat ops due to increased rate of maintenance requirement issues?
My Ogas, let us make our foundation and decking solid before we start building up higher. We alI desire the best aircraft for NAF but current cash shortage is a reality to face. I know you all understand, thank you.
I will say to NAF, it is better to buy only 18 examples of JF-17 Thunder, all 18 units fully armed with full range of weapons options for short, medium, and long range air superiority/interception, land strike/sea strike/interdiction, suppression of enemy air defences, reconnaissance/surveillance, and electronic warfare/self protection capabilities…..than to buy 25 jets with weak weapons mix options and limited combat capabilities.
We should prefer 12 sharp teeth to bite and bleed out Nigeria’s enemies than 24 blunt dull teeth that cannot cut deep into the flesh of an aggressor and spill his wicked blood.
Ogas, the Saab MFI safari (earlier version)was flown extensively in combat by the Biafran Air Force as the Minicon Mosquitos or Biafran babes and accounted for a number of operations during the Nigerian civil war, it was armed with a rocket launchers/pods under wing and it’s activities are the core of the air war book written by Capt Augustine Okpe ( The Last Flight), It dealt extensively with the capabilities of this aircraft. You need to read the book , He was one of the first enrolled and trained Nigerian Airforce Pilots after independence, He was very detailed on the weaponization and training subject, how they armed and locally installed sight and weapons on the MFI ( carried out training in Gabon, etc ). He personally led a lot of the operations and the book contain lots of actual pictures. He is retired now lives in Lagos and was offered by hollywood to make a film based on the book they were in negotiations.
The Mushak is a basic trainer and the starting point for pilot training just like the British Bulldog , Nigerian Air Beetle usually piston engines and requiring low speed ( below 200 Knots or for your student to be able to learn) and high maneuverability to enable the novice pilot to comprehend the handling lessons and also room to forgive mistakes.
The PC-9 / Tucano class of aircrafts ( came into being in the early 80s) started life as advance trainers, offering more high speed and introduction to fast jets handling / training, this are equipped with turbine engines and display jet like handling characteristics, This class of trainers ( speed as of 250 – 350 knots) is inserted into the training syllabus before the training basic jets ( Alpha Jets , Hawks / RAF) to reduce the time spent on actual jet trainers before converting operational pilots to actual line jets ( Tornados, Jags, F16s, etc).
This was the original job for the NAF’s A-Jets ( advance trainers) to prepare pilots for conversion to the Jaguars and the then MIG 21s, while at the same time carrying light operational deployment and a less expensive way of building up,the flight experience of the pilots/crew ( low operating costs to the front line heavy metals ). A properly configured A – Jet would easily be a step in trainer towards actual training within the FJ17’s conversion syllabus, also the current F7 would provide the pilots with mach 2 + experience ( Super sonic handling) and training ( the F7 is a more difficult aircraft to fly than the FJ17 any day, you loss focus in it and you die, the F7 are also not forgiving at low level, low speed and high G maneuvers, The original frame concept was designed for high speed intercepts at high altitude by the Russians ( hence, the nickname Fishbed and shark due to it’s tactics of using a high speed in run to target, launch missiles and then break away like a typical shark attack), it also has some very peculiar handling characteristic, the current F7 pilot are candidates for the FJ17 a natural progression , they would natural need to do lots of training sorties that would eventually build them into operational pilots on the type
( training down and gradual sharpening the cutting edge of the blade).
I seem not to be able to post
Ok I can now, thank u
The Gripen (c/d) is proven to have the lowest operational and maintainance cost among it peers! The RD93 (RD33)has a history of short life span, is smokey and needs more maintainance when compared with the F404 with full authority digital control. I know that the RD93 has come a long way but…meanwhile it Chinese replacement is still trying out.
Composite application is not limited to eight reduction, frame life span is another advantage! Compare the life span of both platforms! Then again, composites are stronger and will carry heavier loads compare to traditional metal. So, even though the difference btw empty weight of both platforms is 500kg the Gripen being heavier, the max take off weight is 1500kg in favor of the Gripen. Finally, composite allow for better G stressing than conventional metal and while the Gripen is stressed to 9Gs, the Thunder is stressed to 8Gs and that extra G can be the difference btw dodging a bullet or swimming home ( or eating Ndole…a Cameroun cuisine make with bitter leaf and ground ground-nut)
If the Gripen can survive the heat and humidity of Thailand, it can survive Nigeria. The combat radius figure is quoted in wiki but I don’t think the Thunder will achieve that without drop tanks! Why, the F404 is more efficient than the RD93 and the Gripen has a better drag coefficient when compared with the Thunder. The C++ has it advantages and is the way to go. However, it has it own weaknesses too as its more likely to be hacked into than the ADA programming language
Incidentally, ur submission is the same with mine! So we smile home and fast and pray that this budget speculation better be true
Oga Augustine, mach 0.4 is a little?
U tube videos? Bros, is there a rational for comparing a canard delta with full digital fly-by-wire with one that is limited in these regard in maneuverability contest? By a little extra, u mean about 1.8tonnes
Better range?
Rival the F16 and Pakistan that builds the Thunder is still buying and upgrading new and old F16s?
Like I said, tons of ink has been spill on the Gripen/Thunder debate, go search. @ least the Gripen has been operational for 18yrs in 5 airforce, so many air shows as well as being involved in so many tenders and operational fact are there! I’m not a marketer for SAAB and I prefer the Thunder for the reasons I’ve stated, but calling it superior to the Gripen is just being funny
Please, Nigeria should not forget to buy
1. Training rounds/practice rounds for bombs and missiles in combat pilot training
2. Graphite bombs, guided and/or unguided, for knocking out ground based enemy electrical-electronic systems in a SEAD strike
3. SIMULATORS for JF-17 training locally at NAF base
In the nearest future maybe 2017-2018 when more money comes, NAF should please add these game changers to our JF-17 fleet….
■ Chinese ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle airborne warning and control system (AWACS) aircraft… for total air battle space control and to augment the limited 100 km approximate range of the JF-17 radar…costs just about $ 80 million each, but one or two units will do.
■ Compatible and cheap air to air refueling tankers, to extend the range of the JF-17 far beyond Nigeria’s land borders and maritime ocean EEZ. Ukraine does offer cheap IL-78 tankers at about $25 million per aircraft, but we can also buy Chinese made Xian H-6U air refueling tankers . One or two units will be okay.
Our Pakistani friends fly these aircraft and that gives their JF-17 more bite.
When you have these type of air power capabilities, it becomes deterrent to potential aggressors even if they are big military powers, everybody is careful about fighting an air force that has 4+ generation jets backed up by AWACS aircraft.
■ When we have extra money, let Nigerian government support NAF to pay for the big plus…. transfer of technology on how to build the JF-17 Thunder 4th gen jet locally in Nigeria, we must get this technology transfer even if we do not plan to open a factory to build here. A golden life time oppourtunity for Nigeria’s local defence industry.
Oga Beegs, we can employ those planes but it depends a lot on 2 things!
1. Intel. We must know the terrain and the strength of the enemy.
2. Tactics, tactics, tactics!
They can’t fly within weapon range of the enemy and has been said, PGM is the way to go!
If asked, I would say, use them more for surveillance or better yet, use them. Remember that with this hamattan, if the direction of the wind is in their direction, they get heard from a distance (speculative as I don’t know how quiet they are)
Oga Lachit, I 4got to say thanks for liking my response!
Oga Solorex, long time. I agree with u on all counts. However, the mica deal with the French fell through (sacrifice on the altar of the Rafale…na joke o) so, the choice of AESA radar falls back to Italian and Chinese…and both are not bad!
Oga Augustine, good call on the AWACS, tankers as well as local assembly for the J17. The only lo point is the number! If 2 are procured and something happens to one, it complicates the who situation and leaves us vulnerable! What of if we have 4 over 4yrs (one covers the north, one the south and one to replace the one that needs to refuel while the last one is in storage in case emergency calls!) I look @ the worst case (qwanta with the franco-phones bringing the French in! The airforce needs 80-120 fixed wing jets (covering all spectrum) to maintain credible deterrence. Note that the de Gaulle can carry 2 squadrons of Rafale and that air bases will be available to them west, north and east of us! They can easily mobilize 60 frontline jets to theatre and few numbers will not suffice. Again remember Mr Murphy’s favorite trick…attrition!
@ifiok umoeka
what is ur specialization if it is by chance mechanical engineering with CAD skills would u be interested on a work which was offered to me by a person from Nigeria.
due to personal commitments and other reasons I stopped halve way through ,
the project relates to a military land system something simple yet hopefully very effective.
though u will not be compensated monetarily , I am also doing it for free . but if it comes online then something can be worked out.
if u r interested tell me then I will approach the concerned party , u can contribute at ur leisure and no pressure to deliver
Alas, Oga Lachit, this dude study law and is just an enthusiast of military tech who reads wide. Had I had the required skills, I would happily work with u free of charge
Nigeria has made history in the global space technology market by becoming the first country in the Sub-Sahara Africa to manage a foreign satellite.
This followed the emergence of Nigerian Communications Satellite (NigComSat) limited, the operator of NigComSat-R, the Nigerian Communication Satellite as the winner of a bidding process to provide In-Orbit test (IOT) and carrier Spectrum Monitoring (CSM) services for Belintersat-1 Satellite.
This was announced by China Great Industries Corporation (CGWIC), a renowned satellite manufacturing company in China and a technical
partner to NigComSat.
The Head Public Affairs, NigComSat, Adamu Idris, who revealed this on Wednesday during a media parley in Abuja, said the operation will
commence on 16 January 2016, the official date for the launch of the Belintersat-1 in Belarus and will last for a period of 15 years.
Adamu said the bid was a keenly contested exercise between Nigeria and other bidders with over 20 years of experience in satellite management.
According to the General manager satellite Operations, NigComsat, Danjuma Ndihgihdah, Nigeria won the bid due to the high capacity of her ground facility at NigComSat base in Abuja, her human capacity resource, and the confidence reposed in NigComSat by the Chinese giant (CGWIC).
With this feat, Nigeria becomes the first African nation to compete at the international stage as a major player in space technology.
Idris said, the winning of the bid by Nigeria represents a milestone for the country and a clear manifestation that NigComSat and indeed Nigeria has developed the capacity to provide highly technical services in the satellite communication industry.
On the benefits derivable from the leasing services, he said Nigeria would rake in revenue from the 15 years service provision to
Belarus and build more capacity for Nigerian engineers, as well as open more frontiers for Nigeria as a global player in the space.
In addition to the traditional services of transponder leasing, he stated that NigComSat would be providing broadband services, enterprise solutions, secured communications and solutions amongs others over Nigeria and other 35 African countries such as Gabon, Cote D’Ivore and Ghana.
On security, he said that the agency has been offering the security agencies with communication services.
Belintersat-1 is a communication satellite owned by the government of Belarus, manufactured and due for launch in January 2016 by CGWIC.
The NigComsat-1R was launched in November 2011, as a replacement to the NigComSat-1 shortly it was de-orbited by the agency at no cost following its technical failure.
It was designed as a regional satellite with four bands to serve about 35 African countries.
Meanwhile, the Minister of Communications will be leading Nigerian delegation to witness the launch of the Belintersat-1 in January 2016, and to discuss other related partnerships and ways to further improve, deepen and strengthen the Sino-Nigeria relationship
http://www.vanguardngr.com/2015/12/nigeria-wins-bid-to-manage-belaruss-satellite-for-15-years/
BEAUTIFUL NEWS for Nigeria! Thank you Mr Augustine for posting this! Small step in space technology, one big step for Nigeria and Africa in general. Thanks to the dedication in Nigerian Space Research Agency and thanks to China for reposing the trust in Nigeria to attract and seal this deal.
JF-17 within NAF, NN, and NA circle.
An air force multi-role combat aircraft is supposed to serve all 3 armed forces. NAF JF-17 Thunder serving the air force in interceptor role, serving the army in close air support/ground strike/interdictor role, serving the navy in anti-ship/maritime strike role, serving all 3 armed forces in the reconnaissance role on land and sea, providing intelligence/surveillance information to help the overall war planning, strategy, tactics, and operations in the entire battle theatre.
The navy supporting the JF-17 by providing the air force with intelligence information gathered by deep ocean frigates with their 250 km range radars constantly finding enemy targets at sea from the coastline to deep offshore EEZ, and somewhat beyond into international waters, sending such information for maritime strike to the command and control centre of the JF-17 fleet stationed on land air bases.
The army supporting the JF-17 by providing national strategic long range air defence systems like the Chinese HQ-9 surface to air missile systems with their dreaded PESA radar, anti-missile and anti-aircraft capabilities, they provide a STRONG DETERRENT TO ALL potential enemies including super powers, nobody wants to fly even a 4++ generation Rafale jet into such deadly SAM defences and get killed like insects. Such army owned weapons will make up for some capability deficiencies of air force owned jet fighters. When money comes in near future, two batteries of the HQ-9 SAM will be a good start.
With the HQ-9 SAM having estimated (some Chinese information blackout) range of 200 km, if you don’t fear my JF-17 too much, you will fear my HQ-9 very much.
Integrated inter-service tactical data link will be a near future enhancement for all three Nigerian armed forces to maximize the use of the JF-17 Thunder in a network-centric, secure/encrypted, and high speed real-time digital information exchange/sharing in a wide battle space of land, sea and air conflict.
Oga lachit, Oga Ifiok Umoeka and others who say Gripen beats JF-17….
When two combat aircraft have very close technical specs with little differences, and one having advantage in one aspect, while the other has advantage in another aspect, trying to prove one better than the other is a SPECULATIVE WASTE OF TIME.
A few points.
1. While Gripen has canards, JF-17 has LERX for extra maneuverability in dogfight.
2. Gripen speeds a little faster, but no jet pilot will ever want to fly at maximum speed as the engines may be permanently damaged, engine life span shortened or become unsafe to fly again as engine is degraded. Many jets will do combat at a common average speed of between 500 km/h to 1,500 km/h depending on mission. 1,235 km/h is already supersonic speed.
JF-17 Thunder has same speed as the respected F-35 Lightening 5th generation jet fighter. Those who know about air combat, have realized that excess speed does not win you a fight, but can help you escape from one.
3. Gripen’s SAAB claim of a 50 year life span aircraft is all manufacturer’s marketing lies to justify it’s over-pricing, how many supersonic aircraft airframes can last half a century? Czech air force Gripen was just 10 years old when it’s 50 year lifespan airframe collapsed during landing as the landing gear broke into pieces and destroyed the Gripen in that accident.
4. There is nothing great about a $ 60 million Gripen jet that carries a 20 year old obsolescent pulse doppler radar and no IRST, so what is on the Gripen avionics suite that JF-17 does not have? Physical beauty, fine looks, nice face.
5. Gripen better than JF-17….how? When export starts, with open architecture, each country’s JF-17 may be different from another. One may have Italian avionics and another have Chinese or French systems. So which JF-17 type are we comparing?
6. SAAB claims Gripen can do +9 g maneuvers, but have you EVER SEEN ONE DO IT? There is a video on youtube of one such attempt….the Gripen jet airframe broke up into pieces and crashed ! Lots of false technical capability claims by SAAB about Gripen. Every Gripen pilot flies the jet with minimum maneuvering, even the top ranked Swedish Gripen pilot was careful, his flight display video is free on youtube
7. I was asked to ask aviation experts about which jet is better between both. Is the aviation expert a Gripen pilot or JF-17 pilot? No expert can judge unless he has test flown BOTH jets and done full technical evaluations directly on both jets with nothing hidden from him by manufacturers.
So where do you find such an expert? No where to be found. Nobody can judge accurately.
8. I have refrained myself from posting JF-17 vs Gripen maneuverability videos here to prove my claim that JF-17 has better maneuverabiilty, I won’t start posting such videos because the whole argument of which jet is better, is a SPECULATIVE WASTE OF TIME.
u really don’t understand English or what?
it is none of my business to support grippen nor jf17,
I am interested in technical matters not comparisons
I merely pointed out that u cannot compare 2 aircrafts **manuverability** based on YOU TUBE VIDEOS OF AIRSHOWS.
please leave me out of this discussion
and I came back only to say this
thank you
and no offence
MUSHAK, THE BOKO KILLER
=========================
Super Mushashak is a fair replacement for Super Tucano if armed variant is purchased. The COIN version is to be armed with 6 pylons for 300 kg of weapons.
AR-1 Chinese missile on our drones weigh about 50 kg, so that’s 6 ATGM on Mushak for anti-Boko Haram COIN ops…. or use 2 unguided rocket pods with 14 rockets total, or can do two 7.62mm gun pods plus two 25kg guided bombs, or maybe just 6 Chinese FT-10 guided bombs that weigh just 25kg and can take out a Boko anti-aircraft Toyota from stand off safe range, cheap cheap guided munitions, kobo kobo low cost PGM that will transform NAF to a COIN bulldog with sharp teeth to tear off Boko Haram’s head from it’s neck.
Super Mushak, cheap ‘manned drone’ for recce, spy/surveilance in silent mode, artillery targeting/guidance/fire control, close air support, 4th gen basic pilot training.
4 hours flight endurance is great, means armed patrol, find random targets, attack target without calling for support, kill mobile target before it escapes, return to base. Good for border patrol, rural areas patrol, remote village community patrol, desert patrol, lake Chad patrol, Niger Delta oil pipelines patrol, Sambisa forest patrol. Low noise single propeller engine makes a silent spy at say 1 km to 2 km altitude.
It has night operations capability, good for night attack and close air support for ground troops.
No airframe armour, needs stand off guided munitions with ranges of minimum 3km for safety, or else even a light machine gun can shoot it down.
Let us buy enough extra Mushak complete engines and keep in long term storage because the engine is American made, and yankee can do funny sanctions with her engines when they go crazy with their flimsy excuses like human rights, as if Israel and USA don’t violate human rights in Palestine and Guantanamo Bay detention camp of American military.
Super Mushskak, $ 5 million per unit Vs Air Beetle $100,000…..no contest, the Beetle is a civilian toy.
Super Mushak $ 5 million Vs Super Tucano $ 15 million ….. I pay 3 times less purchase cost, I get cheaper service life maintenance costs, I don’t mind the 5 times less weapons payload of the Mushak. I get value for my money.
Interesting to know that the Mushak trainer version has pilot and student sitting side by side, replicating the Swedish design of their vintage SAAB 105 jet trainer.
Let NAF try the Mushak in the North East war zone semi-desert dust/sand and see if it can supplement the Mi-35 Hinds that need more maintenance time due to harsh environment. When the Hind helicopters are down for maintenance, the Mushak can fly close air support for ground troops.
NAF, thank you, it’s all good choices you have planned for 2016 procurement budget, we just pray that nothing changes all your good plans for JF-17 and Super Mushashak, your lost glorious days are about to resurface.
Hehe..why are you fretful?
Going back to 2012, THERE IS NO HARDWARE SYSTEM DETAILED FOR ACQUISITION IN THE BUDGET which has not been followed through. I have regularly posted excerpts from the Budget Office of the Federation over the corresponding period.
Among such systems are
– P18 stealth OPVs
– Shaldag Mk.II FPCs
– OCEA FPB 72 Mk.II FPCs , to name a few
Manufacturer specs says Mi-35M Hind E helicopter is built for hot and high climatic operations, well for Hinds, large numbers will mitigate the problem of desert condition induced extra idle time for maintenance.
A few reports around the world talk about the Hind’s main rotor transmission being prone to failure/fire/crash accidents, all due to the stress of long term hovering, inadequate cooling system and lubrication system. Some reports say that with a full load the Hind needs a rolling/runway take-off and also cannot hover, as it will lose stability.
NAF should discuss this gearbox/transmission issues with Russian Mil corporation and see if any technical solution is possible.
36 units of Hinds could mean 12 helicopters available to fly combat mission each day all over NE zone, while the other 24 are under day to day maintenance rounds. Rotation is the answer.
This can also mean NAF still needs to consider supporting the Hinds with 6 units of modern variant Su-25 SM Frogfoot COIN jets later in 2016/2017 when more funds become available.
INVEST $ 2 MILLION ON ATGM THERMOBARIC / HEAT WARHEADS FOR ALL NAF MI-24/35 HINDS AND MI-171 HELICOPTERS.
Let us enhance NAF combat capabilities, it is a waste of capability to buy a $10 million helicopter and ignore a $10,000 guided ground attack missile to arm it, there are second hand missiles/PGM cheap in the market, Russia has huge stocks of them unused in reserves.
I would buy a 7 year life second hand ordnance if I am in a war I hope to win in 1 year.
Top grade stuff @Augustine
GRIFFIN volunteered as follows
Super Mushshak is used for primary training of cadet pilots and you can use it for liaison duties as well (has space for three including the pilot) – Iraq also bought 20 units few months ago.
Regarding JF-17, a two seater verion is being developed and will roll-out in later half of 2016.
Right now PAF is using simulators based at Pakistan Air Force Base Minhas (Kamra) to convert pilots to JF-17. Nigerian JF-17 order will be certainly for Block-II version as Block-III is still few years away.
just came across this today
Nigeria and Sri-lanka to buy the JF-17 Thunder
http://combatforces.blogspot.com.ng/2015/12/pakistan-pushes-for-jf-17-fighter.html
They are hinting at a three squadron order for Nigeria and that pilots have already been trained. We take exception to calling it 3rd generation aircraft though. JF 17 deploys numerous 4th generation capabilities and the few remaining can be integrated in. Something makes me think they have lifted stuff from this blog in making the report.
@trigger, if that report is true, then the NAF fighter pilot I saw sometime ago early last year at UBA in North Bank,Makurdi with a small silver aircraft on the position of his flying wings, would definitely be one of the trained JF-17 Thunder fighter jet.That particular officer is the NAF ToP Gun, nicknamed the MADDOG by his colleagues, because of his fearless and crazy aerobatic performance with the F-7Ni Air Guard.
I feel very depressed when some persons comment about the NAF’s Fighter pilots will take a long time to qualify as JF-17 pilots,haba! these guys are not novice, the flight handling of the F-7 would be more tasking than that of the JF-17.
Having done all the training on high-speed take-off and landings of the MiG-21 fighters,due to the aircraft’s delta wings that generate low-lift,recall that the F-7 is a variant of the venerable MiG-21 fighter jet.
The F-7 carries almost all the characteristics handling of the MiG-21.One of its notorious characteristics is that the pilot should not enter spinning too fast,because the jet will generate high ‘G’s within seconds that would cause the pilot to black-out and if he/she can not regain consciousness on time, the jet will crash.Also,it can not sustain tight turn as that too would generate high ‘G’s and bleed it’s energy advantage in a dogfight.
However, in the case of the JF-17, its wings have higher lift for take-off and landing runs,as well as low altitude handling.The wings of the Thunder are far better than that on our Jaguar jet due to LERX.
So, our F-7 pilots will not have a long learning curve to qualify them to fly the Thunder.A Senior Pakistani Air Force officer once said that any pilot flying the F-7 would also fly the Thunder after familiarising his/her self with the Thunder’s flight simulator.Our fly boys no de carry last, don’t forget,they are Nigerians!
Your points are already proven with Pakistan. It was easy for their transition from J7 to JF 17.
Now that we know the NAF will be acquiring the JF-17 Thunder fighter jet,we need to retire the Alpha Jet, because it can not simulate 4th generation fighter dogfight maneuvers, it does not have radar,and finally it is a subsonic jet trainer.
Contemporary advanced jet trainers like the Yak-130,L-15 and the T-50 which are supersonic jet trainers with radars.
The NAF’s outdated air combat tactics will have to be thrown away, because the MiG-21/F-7 tactics our combat pilots learnt after the Civil War and the recent training they receive from China and Pakistan on the F-7 will be radically changed.
This means the Pakistani Air Force, PLA Air Force and other friendly air forces will assist the NAF in designing a new Air Combat Tactics Document.
http://www.punchng.com/fg-to-spend-n65bn-on-warplanes-weapons-others/
Above link states 2 nos of Mi 35-M for NGN 11,000,000,000. Typographical error or actual budget figures? How 2 choppers go cost past 3 JF-17?! Make we country people eye open well o, this is 2016 and stealing is now corruption! #FireOnBuhari #NeverAgain #ArmNaija2TheTeeth #ReclaimOurGlory
It is not a typo. 3nos JF 17 is exactly N5.4bn. (Use a calculator)
We are paying an exhorbitant rate for the 2nos MI 35M because it is probably a rush order and we are not buying direct from Russia.
I think its a typo
According to wikipedia the thunder Block 2 costs about $28million apeice. three would cost $84 million. gouing by the official exchange rate of 196. the cost of three thunders would be would be N16.4 Billion.
CAVEAT my calculations are based on Wikipedia’s estimated cost.
Unfortunately wiki did not provide the unit cost of the MI-35s. going by this there are some major typos in the report.
However if the 5bn quoted is a deposit and the rest is to be spread over other budgets then it appears we are paying far too much for the HELICS. I think maybe the cost for the thunder and the helics were mixed up with each other otherwise another big scam is brewing
Correction.
Yes you are right.
One jet at official rate of between 196 to 198 equals N5.4bn.
I believe the reporter took figures from the wrong column (the unit price golumn) and reported it as the total sum.
3nos of JF 17 would be around N16.4 billion.
Furthermore a number of websites quote the cost of the MI-35M as $12million, two would cost 24million which going by the current CBBN rate is about N4.7 Billion which is close to the N5 Billion qoted for the thunder. this lends more credence to the possibility that the costs were mixed up. however i note that it leaves an outstanding sum of about 4 billion for the purchase of the thunder. if my postul;ations are right i cannot explain the 4 billion naira which is not budgeted for in 2016. i can only speculate that it will be paid later
MI 35M as new is not $12 million. No country has bought MI 35M for that cheap.
I think the case is clear, Paying for jets are usually done in tranches-because jets/helix are manufactured in batches-whatever is due to be paid for this year will make this years budget.NAF is not buying 3 pieces of JF17-but only 3 pieces will be due for delivery this year-the manufacturing process takes several months-same for Mi 35
CBN*
Dear Gen Beegs, Happy New Year to you and other CyberGs! I feel energized to contribute again with this cheering news…a good start for NAF as has been long advocated on this blog. Just one question, could it be that the figures for the JF-17 were mixed up with those of the Mi-35? I mean, are we getting the numbers slated for the choppers, while the number listed for the JF is the one intended for the Mi-35? I am raising this question due to the cost listed against the helos. On the other hand and if the number of jets and helos are actually correct, can’t we make do with the helos we have in the NAF inventory for now but increase the order for the JF-17, say to 06 units? Thanks!
Have you noticed that they are both equivalently priced?. Such is the sensor array on the MI 35M that it can get away with such a price tag.
The way I see things, the faster platform is for doing many sorties into Mandara mountains and Sam Sambisa while the slower one is for lighting up and blasting the enemy on the ground around lake Chad and during their daring forays into Maiduguri.
I Strongly believe the costs were mixed up and also likely typo errors. It seems more plausible for the two Mi-35M’s to cost 5 Billion naira while the three JF-17’s will cost about that 11 billion naira. I am not surprised to see this because we don’t have well trained defense oriented journalists and correspondents to ask the right questions and to intelligently interrogate whatever press releases given to them. That is why you frequently hear in the news helicopters being referred to as jet fighters. In any case, though Wikipedia is also not a very reliable source of info, i think $12million per Mi-35M seems a correct value. Mind you, costs of spares,munitions and bombs may account for the extra difference. Same also for the JF-17 which will have these ancillary costs added apart from the actual cost price. They are weapon platforms and not for fancy flying.
@Oga yirumso, noted, with thanks.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=401371516700015&substory_index=0&id=328693710634463
View at Medium.com
Dear CyberGs, still on the Sino-Pakistani fighter, a publication (not Nigerian, see link below) says one JF-17 costs USD35 million (an error again)!? Further, it suggests that Sri Lanka has opted out of the deal.
http://www.msn.com/en-in/news/world/sri-lanka-denies-deal-to-buy-jf-17-fighter-jets-from-pakistan/ar-AAgshL0?li=AAggbRN&ocid=mailsignoutmd